Toyota considering moving Scion upmarket. FR-S variants could pave the way

[cfusionpm]

I guess if our new complaint is that we don't have exactly what the foreign market has, get in line. That's nothing new and nothing to lose sleep over. Be happy we get the car at all, which from the looks of your profile, you don't even have.

Originally Posted by Saber_TRD

That changes the suspension tuning as the BRZ is tuned to understeer more than the 86, it also doesn't offer the under car covers that reduce the coefficient of drag, nor does it offer the upgraded brakes. The BRZ Limited is also missing a bunch of other nick nacks such as the knee pads and quite frankly, on a personal note, I don't like it's front bumper/grill.

Oh and the only Subaru dealership within a 2 hour drive from me has been to court for fraud more than I thought was possible before your business could be shut down. That's my case though, not sure about anyone else.



We still have far less than what is offered anywhere else in the world. The point is we shouldn't have to order in the parts from Japan. No other markets that sell these cars do. We're the only ones that were screwed out of them. Oh and I've mentioned many times on this forum that I've tried to get those parts but Toyota refuses to give me the part numbers, let alone order them.

[Saber_TRD]

Originally Posted by finch1750

Becuz Racecar. thats why.

But really do I really care that my sports car doesnt have nice seats or sound deading. No, cuz its a damn sports car. Not a Benz or Bimmer. If they introduced a budget luxury car I would expect to have such. If it didnt I wouldnt complain. I would either not buy it or fix it aftermarket because no car will ever be perfect for everyone, so companies compromise to fit the majority of their target.

But as others have said give me a cool Baja like mini truck or a 80s like Hilux and I'll be hella happy

This is far from a racecar. I have a few things to say to this: Corvette, Supra, Viper, NSX, GT-R. Those are closer to a "racecar" than the FR-S, BRZ, or 86. They all have "nice seats" they all have sound deadening (yes even trunk liners *gasp*), and they are all considered performance machines, the best of the best.

Ah, but those are all expensive. That's besides the point, since they're closer to a true "racecar" by leaps and bounds, but let's go cheaper: Genesis, 370Z, Celica, Camaro, Mustang, Challenger, Silvia, 86. Wait, what? The 86? but it's the same car? How could it possibly have all those quality options? It does and it's made in the same factory.

Originally Posted by cfusionpm

The tC, at least my '05 RS1, had better fit and finish and more little features than most cars in its price range (and some above). Auto off headlights, one touch up and down windows both sides, nice digital HVAC controls, reclining rear seats, and a handful of other little things that were hard to find for 16k in 2005. Plus, it looked great, drove pretty well, seats 4 comfortably and has tons of storage space.

It just depends on WHERE they spend the money. Obviously the tC had things going towards design, finish, amenities, etc. and saved money on suspension, engine (straight out of a Camry), and power. The FR-S is much the opposite, with the extra money put into suspension, engine, and chassis while neglecting things like nice roof liners, sound insulation, and center console storage.

The other beauty of Scion is you generally get a lot for your money, you just have to pick what that priority is. In addition, Scion's Pure Pricing saves you the endless headaches of going back and forth with a stubborn salesman to keep yourself from being screwed out of another couple thousand. That alone drew me to the FR-S over the BR-Z (in addition to the better exterior styling IMO and the fact that I have had nothing but wonderful service from Kearny Mesa Toyota in San Diego, and specifically Rich Manas for Scion sales and Ron Watzek in the service department.

Lastly, until Scion gets their own dealers and changes their registration to their own names (My tC was listed as Toyota, as is my FR-S), then they can be considered a separate entity. At least Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura have their own dealerships and you generally don't cross-service the "lower" vehicles between them. Toyota and Scion are one in the same, and a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

Your argument is flawed, majorly. Had this car been built solely for Scion, then I'd agree with you and have no problem. It wasn't though. It was built for Toyota and Subaru. All the cars, Toyota, Subaru, and Scion are built in the same factory. So they're making all the options and quality parts already for the other cars, in other markets, in the same place, they're just leaving them out for the Scion version. The cost has already been expended to develop and make those parts.

Pure pricing is laughable and the worst bull shit ever. All it does is take advantage of the lazy and foolish. I'd rather haggle.

Here in Canada, Scion vehicles are registered as Scion, not Toyota. They are separate. Don't believe me? Here: https://mysgi.sgi.sk.ca/afFeeCalc/feecalculation.do

Oh, around here, Toyota, Lexus, and Scion are all in one dealership. I go down the street and Honda shares a lot with Acura, even a building. Cross the street and GMC, Chevrolet, Buick, and Cadillac all under one roof. Go down the street and Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, and Fiat, all under one roof again. Cross another street, Mazda, Mercedes, and Smart share a building. Go a ways down the street and you'll find Nissan and Mitsubishi sharing a building. Each of the dealerships service all the types of vehicles they sell and any sales person at those dealerships will sell you any brand they have. They even service used vehicles they sell of other makes. I'd like to mention I take my Chev Cobalt to a GMC/Cadillac/Buick dealership that doesn't have Chevy, yet they've done warranty work for me. They service it all the same. You obviously haven't dealt with many dealerships or their services.

Originally Posted by cfusionpm

I guess if our new complaint is that we don't have exactly what the foreign market has, get in line. That's nothing new and nothing to lose sleep over. Be happy we get the car at all, which from the looks of your profile, you don't even have.

I don't have it because it doesn't have what I want. I wanted the Toyota 86 GT Limited, the car the rest of the world got. The FR-S doesn't even measure up to my current Celica GT-S TRD or my Cobalt SS Turbo, 86 GT Limited fairs far better than the FR-S offering compared to the vehicles I have.

[HunterGreene]

Originally Posted by Saber_TRD

The FR-S doesn't even measure up to...my Cobalt SS Turbo....

Just isolating this, because hory sheet I can't stop laughing. Please, please, PLEASE tell us how this is possible.

[blackraven1425]

Originally Posted by Mandy

I think the dilemma came with the FR-S. If I'm not mistaken, and I may very well be, the xB, xD, tC, were all exclusively USDM (Canada too) cars. The FR-S wasn't, and shoving it into the whole mono-spec line doesn't work unless that one spec is fully loaded. The other thing was dealer installed cosmetic options, which seem to be gone from the brand now.

It's a brand identity crisis if I ever saw it.

The other cars are sold around the world as Toyotas. Not all are available in Europe/Japan, though.

EDIT: Just looked on Wikipedia, they're all sold somewhere else under the Toyota brand.

[Saber_TRD]

Originally Posted by HunterGreene

Just isolating this, because hory sheet I can't stop laughing. Please, please, PLEASE tell us how this is possible.

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife.html

173. Chevrolet Cobalt SS/TC 8:22.85
246. Toyota GT-86 8:44.90


Rules for those records are that the cars have to be stock options, right off the dealership lot.

Guess I'll add that the Cobalt SS Turbo is the fastest production FWD car around the ring. Outperforming some RWD and AWD cars. Might want to do your research.

[MVJ1975]

Originally Posted by Saber_TRD

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife.html

173. Chevrolet Cobalt SS/TC 8:22.85
246. Toyota GT-86 8:44.90


Rules for those records are that the cars have to be stock options, right off the dealership lot.

Guess I'll add that the Cobalt SS Turbo is the fastest production FWD car around the ring. Outperforming some RWD and AWD cars. Might want to do your research.

Megane RS and Opel Astra OPC are both faster. They're production FWD cars as well. EDM-only, but you didn't specify.

The turbo Cobalt SS is a beast though. Completely underrated.

[Saber_TRD]

Originally Posted by MVJ1975

Megane RS and Opel Astra OPC are both faster. They're production FWD cars as well. EDM-only, but you didn't specify.

New since I last checked. Records are made to be broken after all. Still, 3rd is nothing to sneeze at. Those two are showing 2011 and 2012, the cobalt was in 2008.

[HunterGreene]

Originally Posted by Saber_TRD

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife.html

173. Chevrolet Cobalt SS/TC 8:22.85
246. Toyota GT-86 8:44.90


Rules for those records are that the cars have to be stock options, right off the dealership lot.

Guess I'll add that the Cobalt SS Turbo is the fastest production FWD car around the ring. Outperforming some RWD and AWD cars. Might want to do your research.

One site, one track. You're cherry-picking your data. Not to mention you have 5 recorded lap times total for the Cobalt, and already 12 for the GT86. The only head-to-head is Nordschleife, again not enough head-to-head. This also doesn't take into account the driver that was driving the car that day. Too many variables to make this a reliable source of information. The records on the GT86 aren't even complete yet (track performance = 0?). While I like the site's concept, it is not a complete tool yet.

Nobody here will argue that the SS-TC is faster in a straight line, but you need to start presenting more comprehensive data that shows me that its a better all-around car.

I also take reliability into the "all-around" equation. The last year the SS turbos were made was 2010. I can't find sales numbers, so unfortunately I can't substantiate this claim, but looking around--I don't see too many SSs around, and its only 3 years since they stopped making them. Cobalts of all trims were notorious for having build quality issues, and the ones that I do see, with a few exceptions, are showing their age well before their time.

So, while it may be faster, it certainly doesn't last as long as some other cars.

[cfusionpm]

I'd still rather have a slightly slower, sexy, fun RWD car, but maybe I'm one of the many FRS owners who put enjoyment and fun over meaningless lap times around a track I'll never go to.

[MVJ1975]

Originally Posted by cfusionpm

I'd still rather have a slightly slower, sexy, fun RWD car, but maybe I'm one of the many FRS owners who put enjoyment and fun over meaningless lap times around a track I'll never go to.

I would too, but I also wouldn't discount some of the performance FWD cars like the Focus ST, Mazdaspeed 3, Cobalt SS, etc. They're excellent cars in their own right, like a different flavor of ice cream. It's all good.

I just wish someone (*cough*Honda*cough) would give us a quick, capable FWD coupe again. I'm tired of all of these "angry Dadmobile" turbo hatchbacks. They look like giant, bulbous beetles.

Bring back the ITR and turbocharge it, you bozos!

[cfusionpm]

Owned a lightly modded FWD turbo Eclipse for years. Owned a tC for nearly a decade. I'm over FWD.

[Saber_TRD]

Originally Posted by HunterGreene

One site, one track. You're cherry-picking your data. Not to mention you have 5 recorded lap times total for the Cobalt, and already 12 for the GT86. The only head-to-head is Nordschleife, again not enough head-to-head. This also doesn't take into account the driver that was driving the car that day. Too many variables to make this a reliable source of information. The records on the GT86 aren't even complete yet (track performance = 0?). While I like the site's concept, it is not a complete tool yet.

Nobody here will argue that the SS-TC is faster in a straight line, but you need to start presenting more comprehensive data that shows me that its a better all-around car.

I also take reliability into the "all-around" equation. The last year the SS turbos were made was 2010. I can't find sales numbers, so unfortunately I can't substantiate this claim, but looking around--I don't see too many SSs around, and its only 3 years since they stopped making them. Cobalts of all trims were notorious for having build quality issues, and the ones that I do see, with a few exceptions, are showing their age well before their time.

So, while it may be faster, it certainly doesn't last as long as some other cars.

The track. The ring is the be all end all, the definitive test, for any performance car. No one scoffs at comparisons on the ring. These are also official records under very specific rules. You can't really argue with 22 seconds difference either.

The Cobalt is faster in a straight line, but the ring proves it also handles turns. Chevy focused on balance in that car too, they even moved the battery to the trunk to achieve that balance. They gave the SS SC/TC Brembo brakes, stock. Upgraded suspensions over the lower trims, better engines and equipment. Trims increase rarity of the top end models. All vehicles will show their age if not taken care of, mine is in mint condition and I looked at two others before I bought that were also in similar condition. As you said, too many variables to determine how long it will last. The LNF (turbo engine code) has proven to hold up to 9k RPM so it's quite solid.

Originally Posted by cfusionpm

I'd still rather have a slightly slower, sexy, fun RWD car, but maybe I'm one of the many FRS owners who put enjoyment and fun over meaningless lap times around a track I'll never go to.

That's unfortunately not something that can be measured. I have both my Celica and Cobalt for fun. The Celica is slow, but I love the sound of VVTL-i (aka: Lift) when it switches over to it's high-speed cam lobes. That scream will make me smile all day, every day. The Cobalt is for that slam you in the seat feeling and going fast. Both fun in different ways. I do miss the RWD of my Toyota Cressida (MKIII Supra in luxury sedan clothing) but I haven't found a RWD car that fits the bill yet.

[cfusionpm]

I used to think I knew what fun was too. Lightly modded tC and lightly modded turbo Eclipse. Been there done that, I'll take the FRS over either of them any day. Even over my significantly faster 1990 turbo AWD Eagle Talon. There's much more to a car than just speed, especially when it spends 99.99% of its life on public roads.

[midnightfrolic]

got my wife a 2012 Acura TSX for 32k after all said and done last year. she loves the luxury for under 30k pre-tax. it is a NICE car for the price and well loaded in stock form. if anyone is looking for affordable luxury, give Acura a chance.

i love my frs. i just think some peeps ask too much.

if the higher ups push a product and no ones buys into it, they have no one to blame but themselves. serves those greedy bastards right. if you don't listen to your customers, they will vote with their wallets like i did.

my wife and i looked at mercedes and bmw also, but settled on the acura because it had almost all the amenities of both bmw and mercedes. heated seats, power everything, dual climate controls, uber sound system, memory seats, dual custom keys for memory seats, moonroof, driving assists, avoidance assist, breaking assistance, auto lights, and so much more.

performances wise, it is quite good. at almost half the price, it was a very good offering. i am sure i will get flamed but i believe voting with our wallets is a very good way of telling those snobs their products were overpriced crap that no one wants except to feed their own egos.