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Old 07-23-2020, 12:15 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by M0nk3y View Post
I'd argue the FRS can be as fast, or even faster on the track than the SS 1LE. Sure, straight line we all know what will win. However loaded up in a turn where possibility of dropping a wheel/spin/mechanical failure is usually what happens. At NCM T5 my FRS earlier this year was entry speed of 105, apex and exit at 103. If anyone pays attention to Andy Pilgram's videos, you'd realize that is blistering quick.
Having owned and tracked both quite a bit.. I'll disagree. Not on corner entry/apex speeds, but on overall pace/laptimes.

I'm excluding going with boost, swaps, etc on the FRS since that just means mods to the SS1LE are open as well and then one is right back to the same situation.

Both are fun in different ways also. I greatly prefer the Camaro on track but like running the FRS to hang out with my slow car friends.
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Old 07-23-2020, 12:25 PM   #30
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Since we are talking about half-assing.. what would happen if someone had a Simpson Hybrid S + OEM seat/belts + Schrotch (full ass) 3pt harness? You use the OEM belt (safety) and the Schroth (for stability) at the same time. Would this be 1/4 ass, the same 1/2 ass, or full on jack ass? Serious question.
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Old 07-23-2020, 12:26 PM   #31
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Having owned and tracked both quite a bit.. I'll disagree. Not on corner entry/apex speeds, but on overall pace/laptimes.

I'm excluding going with boost, swaps, etc on the FRS since that just means mods to the SS1LE are open as well and then one is right back to the same situation.

Both are fun in different ways also. I greatly prefer the Camaro on track but like running the FRS to hang out with my slow car friends.
Well yeah, overall pace is going to go towards the SS 1LE all day. Andy ran a 2:15.6 on Supercar3s at NCM. I ran a 2:22.9 on a 97F day and a green track post COVID , however mid-apex speeds I'm equal or above him. All make speed in different ways.

Of course, I have aero so I'm cheating a bit
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Old 07-23-2020, 12:34 PM   #32
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Since we are talking about half-assing.. what would happen if someone had a Simpson Hybrid S + OEM seat/belts + Schrotch (full ass) 3pt harness? You use the OEM belt (safety) and the Schroth (for stability) at the same time. Would this be 1/4 ass, the same 1/2 ass, or full on jack ass? Serious question.
Technically the Schroth 3pt Belts are not made for our car, so technically any sanctioned body would be illegal to use (SCCA, NASA, etc). Mostly due to the instructions for the car and the attachment point you'd use for fitment (C-Pillar)

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Suitability for tail strap anchorage of Rallye 4 and Rallye Cross depends upon the specific make, model and model year of the vehicle. Never install the harness belt unless it is used with an approved seat. (See index in Vehicle Reference List)
Because there was never a model for the FRS, it would fail tech. Because there is not model specified fitment for the FRS, I personally would not use one.

Oh also, they're specifically stated that they do not work with HANS, most likely due to belt spacing or how load is applied to the shoulders
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Old 07-23-2020, 12:45 PM   #33
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Technically the Schroth 3pt Belts are not made for our car, so technically any sanctioned body would be illegal to use (SCCA, NASA, etc). Mostly due to the instructions for the car and the attachment point you'd use for fitment (C-Pillar)



Because there was never a model for the FRS, it would fail tech. Because there is not model specified fitment for the FRS, I personally would not use one.

Oh also, they're specifically stated that they do not work with HANS, most likely due to belt spacing or how load is applied to the shoulders
I agree 100%. But looking for the Schroth harness just to keep me on my seat. I am not looking at it as a safety measure on its own (because it's dangerous) and know it doesn't work with a neck restraint.

I'd rely on the OEM belts with the Hybrid S restraint for safety. So in other words, I'd have the harness and OEM belt on at the same time. I might even wear two socks (1/foot).

Unless you are saying that Schroth (that is not for HANS) might interfere with the Hybrid S from doing it's HANS thing? And only gets its HANs groove on either with 3pt seat belt or proper harness/roll bar etc. Like it loses it powers when seeing the 3pt Schroth harness?

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Old 07-23-2020, 01:16 PM   #34
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I agree 100%. But looking for the Schroth harness just to keep me on my seat. I am not looking at it as a safety measure on its own (because it's dangerous) and know it doesn't work with a neck restraint.

I'd rely on the OEM belts with the Hybrid S restraint for safety. So in other words, I'd have the harness and OEM belt on at the same time. I might even wear two socks (1/foot).

Unless you are saying that Schroth (that is not for HANS) might interfere with the Hybrid S from doing it's HANS thing? And only gets its HANs groove on either with 3pt seat belt or proper harness/roll bar etc. Like it loses it powers when seeing the 3pt Schroth harness?
I believe the difference have to be in the ASM design. Stock reclining seats are designed to fold backwards and stock 3-point belts allow your body to rotate and move during an incident.

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Schroth's solution is ingeniously simple and has proven effective in testing and the real world: ASM is an extra few inches of belt that is folded along the inside shoulder belt and hidden under a plastic cover. In a frontal accident the extra belt length is released and allows one side of your body to fall further forward than the other side. This causes your torso to twist, which prevents you from sliding under the lap belt. The ASM is on the right shoulder for a driver and the left shoulder for a passenger (in a LHD vehicle). This also has the benefit of forcing each occupant away from each other. ASM is a standard feature in all Rallye 3/4 and Quick Fit harnesses, as well as on the special Profi II ASM belt. The system is redundant in a Competition harness since those are designed with a sub-strap.
tl;dr - tension released on the belts across your shoulders will yield a HANS useless (even the Hybrid S since the upper body is completely moving). I even learned something today
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Old 07-26-2020, 10:50 PM   #35
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SA2020 helmets go on sale in October. Most of the organizations I’ve driven with allow up to 10yrs before the helmet is no longer allowed.

Meaning my SA2010 helmet is approaching the end of its days of being allowed at events. I could get a 2015, but I’m just waiting until October to snag a 2020 so I can use it for a good while.

Just some food for thought, in case you aren’t in a time crunch to get a helmet.
SCCA (and most orgs) allow for an additional year for you to replace your outdated helmet, so SA2010 helmets will be legal through the 2021 season. YMMV of course.
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Old 07-27-2020, 09:13 PM   #36
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Once you get past the novice group, there really shouldn't be "casual track days". At the point where you are looking to gain time, you are, likely up against your own limits as they stand at the time, even if you aren't up against the car's limits. At that point, its time for safety equipment.

It is not a question of whether you need it based on likelihood of an incident. It's whether you think you need it when an incident does happen. What good is it saying you have a 1 in 100 chance of being in a wreck when your next session out you get t-boned by a car that lost its brakes? It makes no sense. You have nearly zero control over what happens around you. Simply put, you can be a very conservative driver (as I am) but that doesn't mean someone near you isn't going to screw it all up--even at HPDE. (Even for novices, two weekends ago I heard about an 86 driver who totaled their car on their first trackway--it happens!)

So, knowing that the risk for a catastrophic accident is there, you spend the money for safety equipment. I'm sure many of us pay for collision and/or comprehensive insurance on our cars. That's a pretty big chunk of money in perpetuity to avoid financial loss if something bad should happen--and thats a rare circumstance. Here, safety equipment is not primarily for financial loss (although it may save you hospital, rehab, loss of work related financial effects) but for your own health. That seems like a good place to invest money to me.

Spend money on safety equipment as early as possible.
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Old 07-27-2020, 09:43 PM   #37
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And then there's the guy who tracked hundreds of times and never even left the tarmac. Statistics do matter, otherwise you'd spend your life in a padded room. Chance of an accident isn't negligible on the street as well. Would you put on a helmet and a HANS to go to Walmart? There's always an element of risk, and everyone has their own level of acceptable risk. I would agree that once you start being competitive (with others or with yourself), risk is greatly increased since you're pushing the limits of the car, the track and yourself.
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Old 07-27-2020, 09:55 PM   #38
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And then there's the guy who tracked hundreds of times and never even left the tarmac. Statistics do matter, otherwise you'd spend your life in a padded room. Chance of an accident isn't negligible on the street as well. Would you put on a helmet and a HANS to go to Walmart? There's always an element of risk, and everyone has their own level of acceptable risk. I would agree that once you start being competitive (with others or with yourself), risk is greatly increased since you're pushing the limits of the car, the track and yourself.
If you’ve tracked hundreds of times and never put two off, or even four off, maybe you’re not doing this right.

No, I wouldn’t put on a helmet and hans to go to Walmart because the risks are very different and driving on the street requires different visual and auditory cues than on track.
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Old 07-30-2020, 11:16 AM   #39
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SCCA (and most orgs) allow for an additional year for you to replace your outdated helmet, so SA2010 helmets will be legal through the 2021 season. YMMV of course.
Generally 1 year AFTER the next standard is in production. Back in.. well shit I'm old but some year they came out LATE so 12 year old helmets were legal still.
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Old 07-30-2020, 11:21 AM   #40
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Once you get past the novice group, there really shouldn't be "casual track days". At the point where you are looking to gain time, you are, likely up against your own limits as they stand at the time, even if you aren't up against the car's limits.
Not really.

Some people chase time but some are in their "just having fun at 8/10ths" stage of life. Those guys won't go back down to Novice.

You are describing the individual that is chasing time, period. And yes if they have a dedicated track car they really should be running full safety gear. And you could say someone chasing time should have a dedicated track car. Not all do for whatever reason ($, wife, space, etc).

Down here in Florida 25%+ of intermediate and advanced are just guys having fun but have several thousand laps. I've passed their Porsches with a FWD Honda. They aren't close to 10/10ths.
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Old 07-30-2020, 11:49 AM   #41
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Not really.

Some people chase time but some are in their "just having fun at 8/10ths" stage of life. Those guys won't go back down to Novice.

You are describing the individual that is chasing time, period. And yes if they have a dedicated track car they really should be running full safety gear. And you could say someone chasing time should have a dedicated track car. Not all do for whatever reason ($, wife, space, etc).

Down here in Florida 25%+ of intermediate and advanced are just guys having fun but have several thousand laps. I've passed their Porsches with a FWD Honda. They aren't close to 10/10ths.
Yeah, for most experience groups it's not about raw pace...it's more so track awareness.
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Old 07-30-2020, 12:04 PM   #42
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Not really.

Some people chase time but some are in their "just having fun at 8/10ths" stage of life. Those guys won't go back down to Novice.

You are describing the individual that is chasing time, period. And yes if they have a dedicated track car they really should be running full safety gear. And you could say someone chasing time should have a dedicated track car. Not all do for whatever reason ($, wife, space, etc).

Down here in Florida 25%+ of intermediate and advanced are just guys having fun but have several thousand laps. I've passed their Porsches with a FWD Honda. They aren't close to 10/10ths.
That's fair--my wording and thinking may have been a little off.

But 8/10ths in a modern Porsche is still speed at which a mechanical failure, fluid on the track, or another car having an issue is a very dangerous situation. If they are sharing the track with someone that is chasing time, the risks are virtually the same.

To a certain extent, this is even true at the novice level given the level of HP people are showing up with. But I can't say that additional safety equipment is a requirement because then no one would start this hobby. Regardless, with some groups, people move out of novice after just a couple events--i.e., learn the flags, the passing signals and track etiquette and then go learn on your own.

I recognize not everyone will get better safety equipment or have a dedicated track car--but that is the ideal.

EDIT: To better summarize, although chasing time is a reason to have better safety equipment, its not the only one. The risks are there regardless.
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