follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Delicious Tuning
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting

Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting What these cars were built for!


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-09-2022, 12:02 PM   #1
blsfrs
Senior Member
 
blsfrs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Drives: 2013 frs base
Location: central Virginia
Posts: 546
Thanks: 554
Thanked 313 Times in 179 Posts
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Fire suppresion system

Any body use this product?


https://www.blazecutusa.com/
blsfrs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2022, 12:28 PM   #2
gt5759
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Drives: 2017 BRZ
Location: central US
Posts: 22
Thanks: 23
Thanked 37 Times in 19 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I wouldn't recommend anything like that for motorsports, I've had close friends on fire in a race car. At the very bare minimum use this
https://competitionmotorsport.com/li...e-extinguisher
gt5759 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to gt5759 For This Useful Post:
blsfrs (08-09-2022)
Old 08-09-2022, 08:21 PM   #3
Espi
Senior Member
 
Espi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Drives: 17 BRZ
Location: GA
Posts: 174
Thanks: 186
Thanked 121 Times in 70 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
local track brz/86 group recommended me this setup and its what I went with also. So far so good.



https://www.walmart.com/ip/Kidde-Aut...ated/737567556

Mounted to:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B015G3QXMY...roduct_details

good luck!

Last edited by Espi; 08-29-2022 at 10:46 AM.
Espi is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Espi For This Useful Post:
blsfrs (08-09-2022)
Old 08-09-2022, 08:54 PM   #4
soundman98
Flair King
 
soundman98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Drives: '14 Ranger, '18 Tacoma 4Dr LB
Location: chicago-ish
Posts: 9,825
Thanks: 29,885
Thanked 11,637 Times in 5,851 Posts
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gt5759 View Post
I wouldn't recommend anything like that for motorsports, I've had close friends on fire in a race car. At the very bare minimum use this
https://competitionmotorsport.com/li...e-extinguisher
4th line from the bottom

Quote:
These are NOT approved or intended for use as motorsports-sanctioned fire suppression systems.
they also aren't rated for electrical fires. which, if i'm not mistaken, our vehicles still have an electrical system
__________________
"The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time"
soundman98 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to soundman98 For This Useful Post:
blsfrs (08-10-2022)
Old 08-09-2022, 09:21 PM   #5
NoHaveMSG
Senior Member
 
NoHaveMSG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: Crapcan
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,712
Thanks: 13,613
Thanked 12,659 Times in 5,655 Posts
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundman98 View Post
4th line from the bottom



they also aren't rated for electrical fires. which, if i'm not mistaken, our vehicles still have an electrical system
The lifelines are still highly rated for HPDE, they are not approved for racing organizations because of all the residue they leave behind. I am not really worried about electrical fire, I am worried about the open window in the block dumping oil on a header that runs under the engine. I got lucky when I lost an engine and the rod came out the top of the block and didn't dump too much oil.
__________________
"Experience is the hardest kind of teacher. It gives you the test first and the lesson afterward." -Oscar Wilde.
NoHaveMSG is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to NoHaveMSG For This Useful Post:
blsfrs (08-10-2022), soundman98 (08-09-2022)
Old 08-10-2022, 11:32 AM   #6
Kelse92
At the track
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Drives: '14 FRS - Former e92 M3
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 109
Thanks: 89
Thanked 61 Times in 43 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I put this in my race car. Best bang for the buck.
https://discoveryparts.com/spa-techn...ter-steel.html
__________________
#ladydriven Maritime Blue wrapped FRS // Nitron R1's // Zebulon Aero // Karcepts Sway Bars // Ace Header // Greddy Oil Cooler // Too Many RPF1's // AP Endurance BBK // Cobalt Friction brake pads
Kelse92 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Kelse92 For This Useful Post:
gt5759 (08-10-2022)
Old 08-10-2022, 12:24 PM   #7
gt5759
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Drives: 2017 BRZ
Location: central US
Posts: 22
Thanks: 23
Thanked 37 Times in 19 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I should have worded my response differently as in a bare minimum recommendation for HPDE usage.
As for actual motorsports usage the Lifeline 201 AFFF is not certified, which is also what makes it affordable, but it's also not due to it being AFFF (Aqueous Film Forming Foam). If a person is going to by a certified hand held then https://competitionmotorsport.com/li...d-extinguisher would be a way to go as that is ABC rated, none directional usage, bottle is designed to be in a abusive motorsports environment and is a clean agent as well. Also a person needs to check the GCR of the sanctioning body they run with to verify if a handheld is legal vs using a fixed system in the car and what size they are required to have in a hand held or fixed system.
I interpreted the question on the suggested item, as with most HPDE drivers I am around, wanting to be safe but not having much for the budget.
gt5759 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to gt5759 For This Useful Post:
blsfrs (08-10-2022), NoHaveMSG (08-10-2022)
Old 08-10-2022, 12:46 PM   #8
blsfrs
Senior Member
 
blsfrs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Drives: 2013 frs base
Location: central Virginia
Posts: 546
Thanks: 554
Thanked 313 Times in 179 Posts
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gt5759 View Post
I wouldn't recommend anything like that for motorsports, I've had close friends on fire in a race car. At the very bare minimum use this
https://competitionmotorsport.com/li...e-extinguisher
But they are recommended for motorsports.


https://www.flameout.com.au/blazecut
blsfrs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2022, 01:57 PM   #9
gt5759
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Drives: 2017 BRZ
Location: central US
Posts: 22
Thanks: 23
Thanked 37 Times in 19 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by blsfrs View Post
But they are recommended for motorsports.


https://www.flameout.com.au/blazecut
The manufacturing company recommends the usage, yes. Is it recommended and tested by racing sanctioning bodies? Not that I know of.
Would it work as they say? I'm willing to bet it does. The only problem I see with something as this is it only covers one particular spot and has to be directly in the fire to melt the capsule to discharge. Would the said item be a good addition to a bottle or system? You bet but I feel that money could be better spent in a proper system and being those Blazecuts are as much as a proper hand held fire bottle I don't feel the bang for buck is the same.
I would say food for thought though is a full suppression system is only about $450, a proper fire bottle is about $300.
gt5759 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to gt5759 For This Useful Post:
blsfrs (08-10-2022)
Old 08-10-2022, 03:19 PM   #10
NoHaveMSG
Senior Member
 
NoHaveMSG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: Crapcan
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,712
Thanks: 13,613
Thanked 12,659 Times in 5,655 Posts
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by gt5759 View Post
I should have worded my response differently as in a bare minimum recommendation for HPDE usage.
As for actual motorsports usage the Lifeline 201 AFFF is not certified, which is also what makes it affordable, but it's also not due to it being AFFF (Aqueous Film Forming Foam). If a person is going to by a certified hand held then https://competitionmotorsport.com/li...d-extinguisher would be a way to go as that is ABC rated, none directional usage, bottle is designed to be in a abusive motorsports environment and is a clean agent as well. Also a person needs to check the GCR of the sanctioning body they run with to verify if a handheld is legal vs using a fixed system in the car and what size they are required to have in a hand held or fixed system.
I interpreted the question on the suggested item, as with most HPDE drivers I am around, wanting to be safe but not having much for the budget.

That makes more sense then what I was told considering I had seen other AFFF extinguishers that were legal.

I was told originally the push was to go to halon to put less residue on the track. I have a small crappy extinguisher in the trunk, I planed on ditching it for the lifeline and possibly do a suppression system in the bay given the nature of boxers. At 3-400 bucks, worth it after seeing a couple cars nearly burn to the ground.
__________________
"Experience is the hardest kind of teacher. It gives you the test first and the lesson afterward." -Oscar Wilde.
NoHaveMSG is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to NoHaveMSG For This Useful Post:
blsfrs (08-10-2022), gt5759 (08-10-2022)
Old 08-15-2022, 05:44 PM   #11
Matt93SE
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Drives: 2013 FR-S, 2017 BRZ
Location: Houston-ish
Posts: 95
Thanks: 20
Thanked 94 Times in 49 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Lots of misinformation here, and the answer depends on what you're doing with the car. In short, there is a vast difference between "fire extinguisher" and "fire suppression system".

Racing in lower prep level classes, you are allowed a simple fire extinguisher of type XXX and minimum size YYY. In higher prep classes, most sanctioning bodies require a fire suppression system, and those systems need to be certified to SFI of FIA standards and will be either AFFF or a HALON equivalent. Dry chem or straight water are not accepted.

Handheld fire extinguishers don't do anything automatically. The driver has to stop, get out, and then dismount the handheld and discharge at the source of the fire. Often this means the car is beyond help by the time you stop from >100mph on a hot track.

Fire suppression systems can be auto triggered by a temp sensor (wax bulb that melts), or manually fired by a driver or course worker pulling a cable/ pushing a button. If the car catches fire on track, a suppression system *suppresses* the fire with the intent of keeping the driver safe. They do not require the driver to get out and spray a bottle at the car to put out a fire. Reduced damage to the vehicle is great, but the car is secondary to getting the driver to safety. The discharge nozzles should be placed mainly in the driver area, then in other areas at risk of fire- inside the engine bay near fuel and exhaust areas, and inside the trunk around any fuel lines and/or entry points. These systems come in a few sizes of basically 5 and 10lb canisters of either AFFF or X and Y pounds of HALON or equivalent.

These little 'fire suppression sticks' linked by the OP fall kinda in between due to their size. They do automatically actuate and can go off while the car is moving without driver intervention - that's good. But because they only contain a small amount of agent, they're not going to cover a huge volume and wont' put out an engine fire if you blow an engine on track at 100mph and spray oil all over the exhaust. There's just too much fuel for anything to be effective in that case. These would be great in the trunk area or under the dash, but wouldn't put out a blaze in the cabin caused by an oil/fuel fire under the hood.

Now to discuss the various suppressant chemicals.

HALON/ NOVEC and its equivalents are good solution for cars because they leave no residue and won't damage electronics. They work by displacing oxygen in the area so the fuel has no air to burn. HOWEVER that also means they take oxygen away from the driver, so the driver better be able to hold their breath between the time they discharge and vehicle exit. if you pull the pin while doing 120 on a straightaway and look for a safe place to stop, it feel like an eternity!

Dry chem systems are basically useless in a suppression system due to the plumbed lines and inability to push a powder down long skinny lines. Handheld bottles work OK with the short nozzles. They are a mess to clean up and will damage electronics they directly touch, but won't really harm the wiring.

AFFF systems are the most common ones used in race cars due to the low cost and the ability to cover larger areas. The *typical* fire mode in cars is due to hydrocarbon leaks and the fluid catching fire.. this stuff sits on a surface and the vapors burn. Therefore AFFF which dumps a layer of foam on the surface separates the hydrocarbon from oxygen and thus the fire goes out as long as you can keep the layer of foam there. Electrical shorts are also problems, but usually the fire goes out on them once you shut off power and reduce the heat to the problem. Again, the goal isn't to keep the car alive but to give the driver time to get to safety.
AFFF is 97% water, so sure it will damage open electronics if you get it on there. but did the driver live? I'll happily pay the bill to replace my car if it keeps me alive.


NOW for the different use cases:
For HPDE, nothing is *required* so anything above "hope for the best and bail out of the car" is great. these little sticks would be fine. handheld bottle would be fine too, but they're not going to do much if the car is fully engulfed.


Regarding discharge of any of these on the track--- I'm good friends with the managers at my local track and have worked corners for a number of groups over the last ~20 years... Corner stations are usually equipped with a 20lb water can and a 20lb dry chem. They are used as needed without regard to cleanup efforts [u]in order to protect people[/i]. they're not going to blow 10 bottles on a raging car fire if the driver is standing safely away from the car. They'll pop one or two bottles and if the fire is too big or becomes unsafe to the workers to try to fight, they're going to back up and wait for a fire truck to come and put it out, then the flatbed will drag away the carnage after it cools off.

WHEN that fire truck comes, the track's trucks are usually equipped with AFFF, and they use it on any vehicle fire- with possible exception of a hybrid car and I don't know what the process is there (it's irrelevant to the discussion on this forum anyway...) Track safety workers will also use AFFF to wash away oil spills because it has great surfactant properties and doesn't leave nasty residue behind. it's faster, easier, and cheaper to hose down an oil spill with AFFF and get the track going green again than to put out 1000lb of kitty litter and sweep it up. So honestly the track doesn't care what you use in your car since it's the smallest bit of potential collateral damage if your car is on track and beginning to burn.

hope that cleared a few things up..
Matt93SE is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Matt93SE For This Useful Post:
blsfrs (08-15-2022), NoHaveMSG (08-15-2022), soundman98 (08-15-2022)
Old 08-15-2022, 06:31 PM   #12
NoHaveMSG
Senior Member
 
NoHaveMSG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: Crapcan
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,712
Thanks: 13,613
Thanked 12,659 Times in 5,655 Posts
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Thanks for the clarification @Matt93SE. Lots of good info. A lot of what I heard was from other track day goers and it kinda made sense.
__________________
"Experience is the hardest kind of teacher. It gives you the test first and the lesson afterward." -Oscar Wilde.
NoHaveMSG is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to NoHaveMSG For This Useful Post:
blsfrs (08-16-2022), Matt93SE (08-15-2022)
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cranks but won't fire tzbang Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum 27 11-01-2021 09:11 PM
Forged in Fire Nevermore Off-Topic Lounge [WARNING: NO POLITICS] 17 02-18-2016 12:44 PM
86 On Fire Bonburner Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum 6 02-09-2014 02:30 PM
FS: Kindle Fire HD 8GB FRS_Jack Miscellaneous 0 01-22-2014 01:22 AM
Another 86 on fire sw20kosh Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting 25 11-25-2013 05:30 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2022 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.