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Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting What these cars were built for!


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Old 03-15-2020, 02:27 PM   #15
BlueWhelan
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Originally Posted by Clutch Dog View Post
there is some truth to it. that said i wouldnt lap on stock 215 primacies hahahaha rolling around on hockey pucks...


I literally just did that at a local event yesterday. Hockey pucks indeed, though it was a car control day for me so I wasn’t bothered. Quite fun, but quite slow. Lol


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Old 03-15-2020, 03:05 PM   #16
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I really appreciate all of the input in here! I think I'm leaning heavily toward the 225/45 RS4s for this season. Comparing the specs side by side, it looks like I'm only giving up .1" of tread between the 225 and 235, but compared to the ECS I ran last year the tread is around .5" wider despite them both being 225s.

I feel like it's worth giving up .1" in order to save 2lbs per wheel and preserve near oem wheel size. Next year I may spring for bigger wheels and make the jump all the way to 245 when I'm not also spending on an oil cooler, camber plates and a helmet lol

A lot of my concerns ultimately boil down to more sidewall dulling the super sharp steering feel that I love about the car, and potentially crossing a threshold of grip that pushes the car back toward understeer. I want the car to be fast, but I also want it to feel lively and engaging to drive. I understand that if I keep pushing toward pure performance I may have to make a compromise there, but I'm not at that point yet. I feel like for this season sticking to a similar tire size will give me the best frame of reference for how the alignment and new compound are working. This is still very much my learning phase and I'm not banking on being involved heavily in actual competition yet.

Thanks again for all of the responses, and keep them coming if you've got more to say!
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Old 03-15-2020, 05:45 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by DarkSunrise View Post
Yeah that's interesting. -3.5* is a fair amount of camber and the offset of your wheels isn't too crazy. I have no idea why that setup would have had rubbing issues.
Well it's miles too tall, so that's probably why.
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Old 03-16-2020, 08:44 AM   #18
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there is some truth to it. that said i wouldnt lap on stock 215 primacies hahahaha rolling around on hockey pucks...
Primacies are fine for beginner drivers. Learn car control and slip angle at slower speeds and cheaper cost. My normal path for most drivers is to start on Primacy, move to 300ish tw like an Indy FireHawk 500, then 200tw. Has seemed to work out for them well compared to those drivers that move up too quickly then soon plateau.
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Old 03-16-2020, 09:27 AM   #19
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Track is probably a little different.

For autocross, it is really easy to develop bad habits on crappy tires, as it often takes some pretty extreme and unorthodox inputs to inspire a car with incredibly low limits to rotate.
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Old 03-16-2020, 04:01 PM   #20
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Primacies are fine for beginner drivers. Learn car control and slip angle at slower speeds and cheaper cost. My normal path for most drivers is to start on Primacy, move to 300ish tw like an Indy FireHawk 500, then 200tw. Has seemed to work out for them well compared to those drivers that move up too quickly then soon plateau.
thats interesteing you say that

I daily on firehawk indy's and my autox tires i upgraded from federal RS-RR to Kumho V720s and I just got like two days ago a new set of Potenza RE71RS for this season.

to be fair the only reason i had the firehawks is cause i got 18x7.5's and then thought better of it and got another set of PP rims for autox purely.

and I agree with the above guy, driving with a weak tire, with little to no skilset, can develop bad habits. now having driven on better tires, and going to a few control clinics, and going back to the primacies makes it fun. and almost a unique challenge. you get back into a rallyx mindset with how to corner.
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Old 03-16-2020, 04:42 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steverife View Post
Track is probably a little different.

For autocross, it is really easy to develop bad habits on crappy tires, as it often takes some pretty extreme and unorthodox inputs to inspire a car with incredibly low limits to rotate.
This is entirely backwards of anything I have experienced
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Old 03-17-2020, 07:43 AM   #22
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Crappy tires are good for learning car control.


Crappy tires are not necessarily good for learning the car setup or the finesse that you need to be competitive on the top tires for your class. The limits are sometimes so low that it is hard to learn much about getting close to those limits.
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Old 03-17-2020, 08:47 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by steverife View Post
Crappy tires are good for learning car control.


Crappy tires are not necessarily good for learning the car setup or the finesse that you need to be competitive on the top tires for your class. The limits are sometimes so low that it is hard to learn much about getting close to those limits.
And this I agree with 100%.
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Old 03-17-2020, 09:21 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by steverife View Post
Crappy tires are good for learning car control.


Crappy tires are not necessarily good for learning the car setup or the finesse that you need to be competitive on the top tires for your class. The limits are sometimes so low that it is hard to learn much about getting close to those limits.
If you're trying to follow the straightest line, when are you being taught otherwise by the grip of the tire? If you're unable to hold the line you want, you don't develop the ideology that straight isn't fast suddenly.

I get what you're saying here, but I don't think using weak tires will teach bad habits, it just gives you a ceiling to hit. It's like anything else, eventually, all parts are sum of the whole. Once the driver stops being the weak point, you upgrade accordingly and slowly raise the ceiling.
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Old 03-17-2020, 11:47 AM   #25
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The biggest thing I have noticed on some of the lower tier 200TW tires is their breakaway characteristics make it hard to learn to drive the tire up to the limit, the Hankook RS3 comes to mind. Crappy tires I find easy to drive to the limit.
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Old 03-17-2020, 11:49 AM   #26
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235/45r17 vs 225/45r17?

Quote:
Originally Posted by steverife View Post
Crappy tires are good for learning car control.


Crappy tires are not necessarily good for learning the car setup or the finesse that you need to be competitive on the top tires for your class. The limits are sometimes so low that it is hard to learn much about getting close to those limits.


Think about what you just said there...the “limits” are too low to learn much about getting to the limits”?

Using crap tires is great for learning or honing skills. Doesn’t matter if you’re a beginner or professional using good or bad tries...the driving fundamentals are the same. How you use them to accomplish the goal of weight management is also the same.

The tricky part is learning to “fill the circle” while at maximum loads available. Obviously this is easier to do if the limits of the tire are lower as you will spend significantly more time exploring the limits. More often then not, a less grippy tire is going to require more finesse and smooth operation than a sticky tire, as any mistake you make is going hurt your momentum that much more. A proper tire will tend to mask the wound of unrefined driving with the bandaid of grip.

However, I’m in complete agreement that you will never find the correct setup for a sticky tire by using a crap tire. You always setup your suspension to maximize the tire, so if you’re constantly changing tires, or using tires that are completely different in scope you’re going to have issues.


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Old 03-17-2020, 01:02 PM   #27
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Hard tires break loose at lower speeds. When you start driving, tires breaking loose, especially rears, is a scary situation. You want to be scared at 45 mph and not 90 mph. Once you're comfortable with catching and correcting oversteer at low speeds then you're ready to progress up the tire ladder and not before. The inputs will be the same however the breakaway speeds will be different.

You know you're comfortable with catching and correcting oversteer when you have someone in the car and you can carry on a conversation while catching the slide. Skidpad time is your best training tool
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Old 03-17-2020, 02:30 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clutch Dog View Post
thats interesteing you say that

I daily on firehawk indy's and my autox tires i upgraded from federal RS-RR to Kumho V720s and I just got like two days ago a new set of Potenza RE71RS for this season.
Where/how did you get teh RE71RS? I though they werent coming out of Japan till next year?
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