The 86 on Toyota's Chopping Block ?

[Atmo]

What caught my attention was the embedded link to the article by Hans Greimel of Automotive News.

Greimel quoted the master of understatement, Toyota CEO Jim Lentz, in a candid moment. Connect the dots from Lentz's bean counter perspective and there could well be a good reason to quit the low profit 86 partnership with welfare case Subaru.

After all, Lentz was the former head of the failed Scion brand and has said that he won't make that mistake again.

http://www.autonews.com/article/2018...s-profits-rise

And yes, Scott Adam's blog is well worth a read, look and listen.

http://blog.dilbert.com/?utm_source=...ent=navigation

[corry29]

tl;dr

Not gonna lie, I'll actually be happy if the 86/BRZ gets discontinued.
And I actually see it being discontinued. Not based on rumors, but based on my educated speculation and prediction


tl; read

1. 86/BRZ are not doing so well in sales right now.

2. This partnership between Toyota and Subaru cannot go on forever.
-I can see Toyota keeping this car in the lineup IF Toyota decides to source their own engine. Which means Toyota will completely do an overhaul of the whole entire car to incorporate TNGA and source their own engine. Because I doubt Toyota will develop a new in-house BOXER engine for this existing zn6 platform (assuming the partnership does not last)
-OR TOYOTA SHOULD JUST COMPLETELY BUY OFF SUBARU AND PUT SUBARU UNDER TOYOTA. I mean if you look long term. The future of automobiles is hybrid and electric. And if you look at Subaru, they don't seem to be going anywhere. So might as well be protected under Toyota. Honestly, if you think about it, how long do you think Subaru has to last? What is there going to be left for Subaru?

3. It's been MANY years, and Toyota and Subaru still hasn't provided the proper power needed to the FA20.
-Don't get me wrong. I'm actually against "more power" to the platform. I believe in the philosophy and balance. But when looking at it from a consumer's view or the un-initiated consumer, the 200HP FA20/4UGSE is not going to holdup to whatever the future has going on between Toyota and Subaru.
-With Toyota going for a powerful Supra, and supposedly a rumored MR-2 successor or SF-R, there's technically no room for the 86. The suppose "3 brothers of Toyota" were always the Supra, Celica and the MR-2.
-For Subaru it's always about their BOXER/AWD. So without Toyota, the BRZ itself does not have a reason to be in Subaru's lineup.

From how I see it, it makes sense to discontinue the 86 in the near future. Toyota and Subaru can't pretend to best friends forever, unless Toyota buys Subaru off and put everything Subaru owns including their boxer engines under Toyota. Because I doubt Subaru can buy Toyota off. In the end, I think Subaru needs Toyota's help to survive. (Or another prominent company)

Plus, it'll make our 86/BRZ/FRS more desirable in the future. Because right now as we speak, this car is not that desirable, owners usually look elsewhere after 3-4 years ownership. At least majority of them. It takes a enthusiast or someone who understands Toyota/Subaru's true intentions and philosophy of this car to keep it for this long.

For those who actually read it, what you think? haha

I kinda kept rambling there, sorry

[mrg666]

Originally Posted by corry29

tl;dr

Not gonna lie, I'll actually be happy if the 86/BRZ gets discontinued.
And I actually see it being discontinued. Not based on rumors, but based on my educated speculation and prediction


tl; read

1. 86/BRZ are not doing so well in sales right now.

2. This partnership between Toyota and Subaru cannot go on forever.
-I can see Toyota keeping this car in the lineup IF Toyota decides to source their own engine. Which means Toyota will completely do an overhaul of the whole entire car to incorporate TNGA and source their own engine. Because I doubt Toyota will develop a new in-house BOXER engine for this existing zn6 platform (assuming the partnership does not last)
-OR TOYOTA SHOULD JUST COMPLETELY BUY OFF SUBARU AND PUT SUBARU UNDER TOYOTA. I mean if you look long term. The future of automobiles is hybrid and electric. And if you look at Subaru, they don't seem to be going anywhere. So might as well be protected under Toyota. Honestly, if you think about it, how long do you think Subaru has to last? With the whole entire automotive industry changing soon and moving on to the hybrids and electrics, what is there going to be left for Subaru?

3. It's been MANY years, and Toyota and Subaru still hasn't provided the proper power needed to the FA20.
-Don't get me wrong. I'm actually against "more power" to the platform. I believe in the philosophy and balance. But when looking at it from a consumer's view or the un-initiated consumer, the 200HP FA20/4UGSE is not going to holdup to whatever the future has going on between Toyota and Subaru.
-With Toyota going for a powerful Supra, and supposedly a rumored MR-2 successor or SF-R, there's technically no room for the 86. The suppose "3 brothers of Toyota" were always the Supra, Celica and the MR-2.
-For Subaru it's always about their BOXER/AWD. So without Toyota, the BRZ itself does not have a reason to be in Subaru's lineup.

From how I see it, it makes sense to discontinue the 86 in the near future. Toyota and Subaru can't pretend to best friends forever, unless Toyota buys Subaru off and put everything Subaru owns including their boxer engines under Toyota. Because I doubt Subaru can buy Toyota off. In the end, I think Subaru needs Toyota's help to survive. (Or another prominent company)

Plus, it'll make our 86/BRZ/FRS more desirable in the future. Because right now as we speak, this car is not that desirable, owners usually look elsewhere after 3-4 years ownership. At least majority of them. It takes a enthusiast or someone who understands Toyota/Subaru's true intentions and philosophy of this car to keep it for this long.

For those who actually read it, what you think? haha

I kinda kept rambling there, sorry

I approve this message

[NARFALICIOUS]

Originally Posted by ermax

This article is purely speculation. This was my favorite line, “There are a few other opinions but here is the chopping block”. In other words, “there are other opinions but here is ours”. Journalism is kind of a joke these days. Type up a wall of text with zero facts, give it a catchy title and then let the clicks roll in.

Exactly.

[mazeroni]

"We are taking a hard look at all of the segments that we compete in to make sure we are competing in profitable segments and that products we sell have strategic value."

If they axe the Yaris, they can point shoppers to the Corolla.

Buyers of the Prius C will just move to the regular Prius.

The 86? There is no alternative, so I'm not seeing it as a good target. I also can't imagine Tada going down without a fight. It was his first project at Toyota as part of the call to make Toyota relevant to younger buyers - that is your strategic value. Granted it sells poorly, but even if they lost $5K on each sale (worse case scenario after factoring in marketing, warranty work, etc.) that's $35 million a year against the $22 billion in profit they expect for the full year. I don't know what global sales look like.

If nothing else the platform is still good. It passes all of the modern crash tests. It is efficient. It doesn't need new safety tech except what is mandated like the backup camera. It doesn't need to be re-engineered. Doing a second gen shouldn't be costly.

I think the trouble will be Subaru. Given the recent spat of recalls wiping out their profits, they might push to step away from the project. At that point, I'm not sure what you do. I don't know what their agreement looks like, or if Subaru would continue to supply engines and build the thing.

There is always Mazda. Although any sports car project might take years before we see any sort of final product.

[daiheadjai]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

I like the new taillights better than the old ones.

That's down to taste.
I'd have preferred if they went for the TOMS look instead of the faux-lentis.

But that's just me - I'm sure it's a problem with plenty of aftermarket solutions.

EDIT: To echo the sentiment shared by others (incl. Mazeroni just about this), I think even if the 86 gets 86'd, Toyota now realizes the need for a sports car in the line up (volumes be damned) - we'd probably get something else to replace the 86.
Preferably with an inline-4 instead...

[xenarc]

IMO I believe Toyota will discontinue the 86 already. They killed SCION already and the TC was a decent car. I owned a manual 2nd GEN and loved the ride quality but in the end it was a FWD. I honestly do not see many new GT86s or BRZ around my area. I only see the the FR-S once in a blue moon. When I see someone driving a GT86 or BRZ at the light we just look at each other admiring each others cars. The cars that will survive are obviously the most seen on the road. Corolla & Camry. Accord & Civic, Elantra & Sonata etc.

[Bonburner]

I would not be surprised if it was DC'd .. but I remember an announcement stating they intended on providing a low, mid (Fr-s), and high (supra) sports cars in the toyota line up; honorary mention, top tier LC500

[Atmo]

Toyota released their 2019 financial forecast this month and (once again) made it clear that cost cutting, increasing revenue through TNGA, and fewer incentives will be their priority next year.

That makes the possibility of an 86 v.2.0 seem even more remote.

OTOH, it sounds like the rumored Corolla Hatchback GRMN-type may be right around the corner. The all-new 2020 Corolla reveal is in two days. Even though the all-new 2019 Corolla Hatch has only been on sale a few months.

Hmm, could it be their emphasis will turn away from 86 to an entry level hot hatch vs. the current 2019 warm hatch?

But, what do I know? Nada, just hopeful about all-new cars of the same series being released so soon. Watch it be another crossover.

https://livestream.com/Toyota/Corolla

I hope they keep the Carmel reveal low key out of respect to the California fire victims.

Edit: Online speculation is that it's the new sedan. Good for profit, not for enthusiasts.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Bonburner

I would not be surprised if it was DC'd .. but I remember an announcement stating they intended on providing a low, mid (Fr-s), and high (supra) sports cars in the toyota line up; honorary mention, top tier LC500

No you remember internet journalists quoting a couple of people saying they would "like to see" three different sports cars in the line up. There has never been any formal announcement of such a plan nor anything beyond the "like to" comments made by a person that would have any real final say. Even if they did have three it does not for one second mean we would have them all here.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by corry29

tl;dr

Not gonna lie, I'll actually be happy if the 86/BRZ gets discontinued.
And I actually see it being discontinued. Not based on rumors, but based on my educated speculation and prediction


tl; read

1. 86/BRZ are not doing so well in sales right now.

2. This partnership between Toyota and Subaru cannot go on forever.
-I can see Toyota keeping this car in the lineup IF Toyota decides to source their own engine. Which means Toyota will completely do an overhaul of the whole entire car to incorporate TNGA and source their own engine. Because I doubt Toyota will develop a new in-house BOXER engine for this existing zn6 platform (assuming the partnership does not last)
-OR TOYOTA SHOULD JUST COMPLETELY BUY OFF SUBARU AND PUT SUBARU UNDER TOYOTA. I mean if you look long term. The future of automobiles is hybrid and electric. And if you look at Subaru, they don't seem to be going anywhere. So might as well be protected under Toyota. Honestly, if you think about it, how long do you think Subaru has to last? What is there going to be left for Subaru?

3. It's been MANY years, and Toyota and Subaru still hasn't provided the proper power needed to the FA20.
-Don't get me wrong. I'm actually against "more power" to the platform. I believe in the philosophy and balance. But when looking at it from a consumer's view or the un-initiated consumer, the 200HP FA20/4UGSE is not going to holdup to whatever the future has going on between Toyota and Subaru.
-With Toyota going for a powerful Supra, and supposedly a rumored MR-2 successor or SF-R, there's technically no room for the 86. The suppose "3 brothers of Toyota" were always the Supra, Celica and the MR-2.
-For Subaru it's always about their BOXER/AWD. So without Toyota, the BRZ itself does not have a reason to be in Subaru's lineup.

From how I see it, it makes sense to discontinue the 86 in the near future. Toyota and Subaru can't pretend to best friends forever, unless Toyota buys Subaru off and put everything Subaru owns including their boxer engines under Toyota. Because I doubt Subaru can buy Toyota off. In the end, I think Subaru needs Toyota's help to survive. (Or another prominent company)

Plus, it'll make our 86/BRZ/FRS more desirable in the future. Because right now as we speak, this car is not that desirable, owners usually look elsewhere after 3-4 years ownership. At least majority of them. It takes a enthusiast or someone who understands Toyota/Subaru's true intentions and philosophy of this car to keep it for this long.

For those who actually read it, what you think? haha

I kinda kept rambling there, sorry

So when do we get to hear the "educated speculation"?


Toyota is not going to buy more of Subaru to continue production of a small volume niche vehicle. That is silly to even suggest.
Toyota already owns almost 20% of Fuji heavy metal industries. That may not sound like much but in a publicly traded company that gives them a huge amount of control.
Subaru is one small part of the whole Fuji business. They could probably lose money on all their cars and still operate. There is a big picture involved.
Toyota and Subaru are not "pretending" to be friends. Joint ventures in car manufacturing are not new and this is not an isolated example. Many joint ventures have gone on for decades.
Subaru may be late to the EV/Hybrid party but they are joining. It makes some business sense to sit back at let others develop the tech before jumping into the fray. Even if they didn't want to be involved why would Toyota buy them just to have them be left way behind?
Not even going to address the "proper power" comment as that has been hashed out many times.


This was never intended to be a money making vehicle. Volumes would have been planned to be low and profit non monetary right from the start. If the car is discontinued then it was most likely scheduled to be back before the first one ever left the assembly plant. Neither Toyota nor Subaru are some little Mom and Pop shop that run by the seat of their pants and make last minute decisions based on current events. Speculation is fun but making guesses based on little or no knowledge of the industry is just funny.

[Bonburner]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

No you remember internet journalists quoting a couple of people saying they would "like to see" three different sports cars in the line up. There has never been any formal announcement of such a plan nor anything beyond the "like to" comments made by a person that would have any real final say. Even if they did have three it does not for one second mean we would have them all here.

Yeah, looks like it is just a "like to do" thing.

“Akio [Toyoda] has always said that as a company he would like to have Three Brothers, with the GT86 in the middle and Supra as the big brother."

https://blog.toyota.co.uk/new-toyota...r-tetsuya-tada

&

Will we see a return to the three-tier Toyota performance car range, as in the days of the Supra, Celica and MR2?

'We hope to have the three brothers in place as soon as possible.'

https://www.evo.co.uk/toyota/gt-86/1...neup-is-coming

wishful thinking.

[extrashaky]

As long as Toyota has an existing relationship with BMW, and as long as BMW has an interest in introducing a small, light sports car under the Mini banner, Toyota really ought to just go ahead and build the low tier sports car in cooperation with Mini. The SFR and Superleggera concepts even bear a pretty striking resemblance, as if maybe some behind the scenes discussion might have already been happening.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

As long as Toyota has an existing relationship with BMW, and as long as BMW has an interest in introducing a small, light sports car under the Mini banner, Toyota really ought to just go ahead and build the low tier sports car in cooperation with Mini. The SFR and Superleggera concepts even bear a pretty striking resemblance, as if maybe some behind the scenes discussion might have already been happening.

It is the way of the sports car now and that would be a very good pairing.