EcuTek vs BRZ-Edit

[regal]

Is it true that BRZ-Edit only encrypts thru its cable and doesn't add a layer of encryption on the ECU itself? Wouldn't this be more reliable, I mean anyone we has run bit locker on windows knows that running encryption slows down a processor and leads to stability issues. Or is the EcuTek just replacing the factory encryption with its own version, effectively not adding any load to the processor?

Also is the any truth to the rumor that Toyota can identify an ECuTek tuned ECU even if flashed back to stock but they can't identify a BRZ-Edit flashed back to stock since the BRZ-Edit doesn't encrypt the ECU?

Thanks

[bakerr6]

Good questions. Slowing down the processor is a non factor in this case. I do not know about toyota being able to identify if the ecu was flashed, but I can say that from the people I have talked with that have ECUtek have said that their dealer neevr said anything about the tune.

[swift996]

I'm not sure how the encryption works on the EcuTek ROM but it does validate a license.

There have been reports that a dealer can check the ECU logs and see that there was an "event." I don't think they can say hey, we know you had a tune but they probably won't warranty any engine parts knowing there was an event on your ECU. You're everyday customer won't have an event so it raises a red flag.

If that's a big concern to you Unichip is a piggy-back system and Hydra EMS is a full stand-alone. There are always cost/risk and performance trade-offs.

I'm looking forward to more people using BRZ-edit, it seems a little more open versus EcuTek. EcuTek is still the dominate tuner choice for this platform though, so support is great.

[ft_sjo]

Toyota (via Denso) will be able to see any re-flashes if they really wanted to. This includes dealer flashes.

[Dynotronics1]

Originally Posted by ft_sjo

Toyota (via Denso) will be able to see any re-flashes if they really wanted to. This includes dealer flashes.

only if you read line by line in the code

It has always been, and always will be, that someone will be able to see, on some level, that the code has changed. Question is, can it be done at the dealer, or even the factory level, and is it worth the cost and time to do so?

Short answer is, no.

We have had more than a few of our customers visit the dealer for warranty, both with the stock flash reinstalled, and with the tuned file in place, and not one time has it been detected.


Am I telling you to get a bad tune, blow up your engine, then remove the file and try to get the dealer to warranty it? No! That's not only bad for your Karma, but its fraud.

On the other hand, you should not be denied a claim for a wheel bearing, or even something like injector seals because you have a professional calibration in your ecu.

[ft_sjo]

No, the dealer can't do it. Which is why I specifically mentioned Denso. Even Toyota probably don't have the kit to do full-on forensics. I do have some knowledge in this field.

[Xero-Limit]

I've used open source, standalone, and other flashing tools. I do 99% EcuTek now for two reasons:

It is a fully staffed company of engineers who do the work from ground up
Do their OWN work
Listen to customers and their dealers - no more lock downs for writing, RaceROM, priorities...

EcuTek ProECU does NOT encrypt the ECU file in any way once flashed, only prevents someone from "reading" it which others have done to see the code. This does NOT prevent writing to the ECU so the dealer or another tuner can overwrite even the tuned file, not just stock.

The "license" is a few bytes in the empty area of the code, you'd need to be a high level engineer to get at it, and it should not be used to deny warranty in the US since it has 0 effect on performance. The EcuTek software also enables enhanced datalogging and the last few weeks we have had folks get it for the sake of safety because subaru/scion dealers have been lazy about updating to the A01C/D revision or have not heard about it.

As for BRZEdit vs EcuTek...well, one was first, the other has maps labeled VERBATIM from what I see on the backend with EcuTek, and is trying to catch up; so if it quacks like....but I digress here because this industry is such, but there's a reason we and many of the bigger companies stick with the EcuTek platform. Support the innovators and those who continue to support customers.

Doesn't mean that BRZEdit won't have something additional to offer in the future and competition is good, but you absolutely get what you pay for. At first I didn't think we'd sell much at the $844 price but $/hp and the choices it gives you with tuners and doing several cars, it is a bargain still IMO and most agree.

When doing MX-5s I was frustrated with the tuning options to the point where I did my own disassembly and reverse engineering only to be copied. When I picked up the EcuTek suite due to the 09+ compatibility I was amazed that they were mostly there with what I had, but a bit ahead in other areas so I know they did it from scratch. However their platform is much more scalable and robust.

But for this reason I stick to tuning and let the engineers do the dissasembly. It is a painstaking process that sucks up 1000's of hours with seemingly tiny benefits (i.e. open loop, rev limits, load limits...) but that little detail for the tuner is what makes it or breaks it...imagine a boosted car staying in closed loop to 10 psi (oh wait...subaru cough cough)

Another detail here is that with EcuTek we've not had to send in a single ECU yet--all have been recovered via the same ODB2 cable as long as you have access to the internet (hint hint, flash only where you have it or get a spare license)

One thing frequently asked is for DIY editing and tuning. This was great back when you had your mustang or honda or DSM...but with these ECUs and the >1000 tables, you can't just dive in and tune. I've sold dozens of the MX-5 DIY kits and I've had--two--that actually ended up not having me tune it in the end. These are talented folks and shops. There's a reason there's only a small network of master tuners who support these cars.

[regal]

Yes BRZ-edit is a cheaper alternative for flashing updates. Its almost worth the $199 BRZ-Edit version just to flash the latest stock updates and not have to hassle with the dealer.

That really shouldn't void a warranty but if an "event" log causes a dealer to deny a claim say for burnt injector seals leading to a blown engine at 50k miles I guess it isn't worth the risk.

You would think if BRZ-Edit and EcuTek really cracked the ECU the ability to erase the "event log" would be available.

I don't agree with a guy claiming warranty for a bad tune, but if a guy is just keeping his car up to date with the latest stock tunes it would be nice to keep a warranty.

Usually when I buy a car I pick one late in its life cycle where I don't even think about the warranty, do my own maintenance not documenting anything. My other Toyota has several documented 500k mi owners, that's one of the "perks" about the brand.

But this being a first generation Subaru boxer, for the first time I can remember I am really concerned with the warranty. I think it was the first gen WRX? where the Subaru tune was so poor that FAQ's were posted recommending to get an aftermarket tune just to keep the thing from detonating and throwing rod bearings.

So I am not one who thinks that a tune should automatically disqualify one from a warranty. If the initial stock tune was perfect then yes, but obviously it isn't.

[regal]

Originally Posted by moto-mike

I've used open source, standalone, and other flashing tools. I do 99% EcuTek now for two reasons:

It is a fully staffed company of engineers who do the work from ground up
Do their OWN work
Listen to customers and their dealers - no more lock downs for writing, RaceROM, priorities...

EcuTek ProECU does NOT encrypt the ECU file in any way once flashed, only prevents someone from "reading" it which others have done to see the code. This does NOT prevent writing to the ECU so the dealer or another tuner can overwrite even the tuned file, not just stock.

The "license" is a few bytes in the empty area of the code, you'd need to be a high level engineer to get at it, and it should not be used to deny warranty in the US since it has 0 effect on performance. The EcuTek software also enables enhanced datalogging and the last few weeks we have had folks get it for the sake of safety because subaru/scion dealers have been lazy about updating to the A01C/D revision or have not heard about it.

As for BRZEdit vs EcuTek...well, one was first, the other has maps labeled VERBATIM from what I see on the backend with EcuTek, and is trying to catch up; so if it quacks like....but I digress here because this industry is such, but there's a reason we and many of the bigger companies stick with the EcuTek platform. Support the innovators and those who continue to support customers.

Doesn't mean that BRZEdit won't have something additional to offer in the future and competition is good, but you absolutely get what you pay for. At first I didn't think we'd sell much at the $844 price but $/hp and the choices it gives you with tuners and doing several cars, it is a bargain still IMO and most agree.

When doing MX-5s I was frustrated with the tuning options to the point where I did my own disassembly and reverse engineering only to be copied. When I picked up the EcuTek suite due to the 09+ compatibility I was amazed that they were mostly there with what I had, but a bit ahead in other areas so I know they did it from scratch. However their platform is much more scalable and robust.

But for this reason I stick to tuning and let the engineers do the dissasembly. It is a painstaking process that sucks up 1000's of hours with seemingly tiny benefits (i.e. open loop, rev limits, load limits...) but that little detail for the tuner is what makes it or breaks it...imagine a boosted car staying in closed loop to 10 psi (oh wait...subaru cough cough)

Another detail here is that with EcuTek we've not had to send in a single ECU yet--all have been recovered via the same ODB2 cable as long as you have access to the internet (hint hint, flash only where you have it or get a spare license)

One thing frequently asked is for DIY editing and tuning. This was great back when you had your mustang or honda or DSM...but with these ECUs and the >1000 tables, you can't just dive in and tune. I've sold dozens of the MX-5 DIY kits and I've had--two--that actually ended up not having me tune it in the end. These are talented folks and shops. There's a reason there's only a small network of master tuners who support these cars.

This info this is most impressive from someone who obviously has a lot of experience, in general you do get what you pay for.
Thanks.

[jamesm]

I prefer BRZedit, reluctantly, because there is no true open source tuning available (yet, romraider has the ssm handshake cracked and posted, so it's coming soon).

The two things that piss me off about brzedit is that it requires a proprietary cable (tactrix) for no good technical reason (any cheap j2534 cable would work, and did up until a recent version of ecuflash began checking tactrix id's for licensing to one cable), and it is effectively stolen IP from the open source crowd. You can read the history, but basically dude got a bunch of people to contribute then pulled the bait and switch and now he won't release the source. This is true of all the ***edit products. Some shady stuff.

Still, it beats ecutek's bend-over licensing scheme by a mile. The idea that I can pay a tuner and hourly rate, to tune my specific vehicle on a dyno in person (a bespoke tune, not canned and resold) then somehow not own the product of that work is absurd. If I pay for labor, I own the fruit of it. If I have two BRZ's with the same mods, I should be able to flash MY map to both for the cost of producing the single map. But I can't, because with ecutek you own nothing, they're just letting you use it under their terms.

Proprietary software/licensing schemes always suck, which is why open source always wins in the long run (see the server you're reading this on, your android phone, etc). In the end it'll go just like it did in the evo community. People will use proprietary solutions until open source catches up, and eventually passes the other options. Nowadays nobody tunes them with anything but open source tools.

Oh and I love the ecutek "save you from yourself" big brother excuse for not offering end user tuning. Bs. You're not smarter than us. Even if you were, you don't warranty my work anyway. It's all about keeping the keys in the hands of the select few that paid for their 'master tuner' package, not about helping you. Is anyone else insulted by the suggestion that our feeble minds can't grok the complexities of an FA20? A Honda sure, but non an FA20 lol. What a joke!

[mad_sb]

Originally Posted by moto-mike

...
One thing frequently asked is for DIY editing and tuning. This was great back when you had your mustang or honda or DSM...but with these ECUs and the >1000 tables, you can't just dive in and tune. ...

Shhh.. don't tell all the 4B11T and 32bit subaru ecu guys that... they have been doing it for years Despite the added complexity of the dual fuel system, this is very much a 32bit Subaru ECU.

EcuTek is a great product, no doubt. And if they offered me the ability to tune my own car, or take my own car to any tuner i choose to (not just those that have chosen to buy into support for this particular vehicle with ecutek) then i probably would have purchased EcuTek.

But they don't and i don't think they ever will so i got BRZedit instead. And if / when EcuFlash suppports the twins, I will be using that too...

[regal]

I guess the way I look at it the $199 BRZ-edit personal edition is only good for stock update flashes at this point as there are just a couple of tuners using BRZ-edit and they don't do remote tunes.

Then the $499 + $160 cable BRZ-edit is OK if you have a cheap access to a dyno and are quick with the software, not many will go to that trouble. But it will cost more than an ECUTek.

The only way I could see BRZ-edit becoming a success if a major FI kit came with a tune, that would save $500 off a packaged EcuTek tune. So far none have surfaced. Imagine if the "innovate" super charger had been developed with BRZ edit, it would have retailed for $3300!

The Uni-chip I see no point in, fix the transient ignition retard tables? Not a chance.

I too am a believer in open source always ultimately prevailing, but that could be a long time from now and as said BRZ-edit is sort of a rip-off of others open source work. Unfortunately that action may have soured open source hackers to this platform. Could be years.

So for $800-$900 bucks an EcuTek tune from someone you trust to stick with you is probably the safest bet unless you have a great local tuner and dyno who owns the BRZ-edit pro version. Especially if the only way to catch it with warranty is a line by line code analysis, I originally thought the encryptions was more heavy handed. This is good.

I guess we should be glad we have a couple options that work, can you imagine if the only route to FI on these cars was a stand-alone or piggy-back. I remember not buying an S14 240sx because no one could figure out the ECU and standalone was the only option. We are pretty lucky.

[jamesm]

My main practical issue with the locked down tunes is that I'm banking on having support for as long as I own the car. If I have it 10 years, and XYZ Motorsport that I bought it from goes under or something, I'm out of luck. If I need to fix an issue I have to flash back to stock and pay to have a whole new map made (if that's even possible), I can't just pull it, modify it myself and reflash (fixing the transient timing issue is a good example).

[mad_sb]

Originally Posted by regal

... unless you have a great local tuner and dyno who owns the BRZ-edit pro version. ..

Tuner does not need the pro version. You can buy personal and take your laptop to the tuner and have them tune you car.

Self tuning is not for everyone, but for those of us it is for, BRZedit is the only option aside from a stand alone.