(GR86) Second Generation FR-S/BRZ insider info...

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

As a matter of fact I wish the seemingly taller hood was hiding a inline Toyota

A forlorn hope since the mkII development is allegedly all Subaru, with less Toyota involvement than the mkI. Same platform allegedly, which means another Subaru boxer 4 is all but guaranteed.

[Lantanafrs2]

Originally Posted by Red-86

A forlorn hope since the mkII development is allegedly all Subaru, with less Toyota involvement than the mkI. Same platform allegedly, which means another Subaru boxer 4 is all but guaranteed.

If is all subaru I'm glad I own the first gen

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

If is all subaru I'm glad I own the first gen

Kind reminder that Subaru convinced Toyota to build a sports car after letting them drive the first BRZ test mule:



Toyota went into the partnership wanting to make an AWD crossover.

[beltax90]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

If is all subaru I'm glad I own the first gen

[Vides990]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Kind reminder that Subaru convinced Toyota to build a sports car after letting them drive the first BRZ test mule:

Toyota went into the partnership wanting to make an AWD crossover.

Huh? That's the opposite of what happened. Subaru was dragged kicking and screaming to the rwd platform.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by Vides990

Huh? That's the opposite of what happened. Subaru was dragged kicking and screaming to the rwd platform.

subaru had built up a solid marketing campaign over the previous 5-10 years that everything they sold was AWD. i remember laughing at the first subaru commericial that came out after the brz debuted in 2012 and the AWD byline was suddenly missing.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Vides990

Huh? That's the opposite of what happened. Subaru was dragged kicking and screaming to the rwd platform.

Yep. Especially when Toyota said to have a NA engine.

[beltax90]

im fine with the subaruness:

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Vides990

Huh? That's the opposite of what happened. Subaru was dragged kicking and screaming to the rwd platform.

UPDATE: I may have interpreted the original article wrong, see here: https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...postcount=1535



Subaru’s account of the early development is very different to the marketing story that Toyota decided to dream up and publish. I’ll find the source materials for my claim, it’ll take me a while though because it’s buried somewhere in 2011.



Basically Subaru had already built their first iteration of the AS1 chassis when talks with Toyota on starting the partnership were happening. That’s the black ugly mule i posted earlier. -This chassis was probably commissioned by Toyota and built by Subaru to aid Tada's argument for a sports car over an SUV-



The whole story on how Toyota decided the styling of the car also has a massive caveat to it: they styled the car around the already completed chassis and hard points, so the shape of the car is much more defined by the shape of the unibody than Toyota wanted to admit. Toyota did not design this car from a blank slate, they draped sheet metal over the Subaru chassis (modified Impreza chassis really). The more I find about early development quotes from both sides the more I am convinced the whole 50/50 effort on designing the car is a load of Toyota marketing BS. From what I found the earliest material seems to indicate that the lionshare of the engineering design and testing was done by Subaru.


Here’s a link that has some sparse info on the early development, But it’s mostly focused on the driving impression of the final prototypes. I’ll keep looking for the article I mentioned. https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...ototype-drive/



Another one:

But whose car is it really? Senior project general manager Masuda says that only Subaru personnel were in the engineering bullpens and at the test track during the car’s three-year gestation. How often did Toyota check in? “Meetings with Toyota were always necessity based” and not regular, Masuda says, meaning that Toyota did not drive the project from the back seat.



Masuda goes even further to assert that the engineering of the AS1 dictated its styling, rather than vice versa as with most sports cars. Toyota’s designers shaped the body but only after the hard points of the chassis, powertrain, and passenger compartment were fixed by Subaru



“We delivered the best chassis we could,” he says, “and then the styling of  the car was basically [Toyota’s] role.”

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Subaru’s account of the early development is very different to the marketing story that Toyota decided to dream up and publish. I’ll find the source materials for my claim, it’ll take me a while though because it’s buried somewhere in 2011.

No one said that Toyota designed the car from a blank slate, but they were definitely the driving force. Subaru didn't have the money for the required R&D of a new sports platform. People could recall Subaru filling back in 2008 an application under Chaper 11 of the United States Bankruptcy Code. It was the same year where Toyota decided to nearly double the stakes in Subaru and agreed to work on a RWD sports car and other hybrid projects.

https://www.media.subaru-global.com/en/news/1220
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/...aru-parent-fhi


And as far it concerns the engineering, I could say that the engine was basically redesigned by Toyota with a bit of help from Yamaha. Transmission and rear differential is also Toyota with basically same differential part numbers used in Lexus cars. Same about the interior and exterior design which was driven by Toyota.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Subaru’s account of the early development is very different to the marketing story that Toyota decided to dream up and publish. I’ll find the source materials for my claim, it’ll take me a while though because it’s buried somewhere in 2011.

Basically Subaru had already built their first iteration of the AS1 chassis when talks with Toyota on starting the partnership were happening. That’s the black ugly mule i posted earlier.

The whole story on how Toyota decided the styling of the car also has a massive caveat to it: they styled the car around the already completed chassis and hard points, so the shape of the car is much more defined by the shape of the unibody than Toyota wanted to admit. Toyota did not design this car from a blank slate, they draped sheet metal over Subarus new chassis (modified Impreza chassis really). The more I find about early development quotes from both sides the more I am convinced the whole 50/50 effort on designing the car is a load of Toyota marketing BS. From what I found the earliest material seems to indicate that the lionshare of the engineering design and testing was done by Subaru. The only reason the automatic even exist is because Toyota wanted it, Subaru had no interest in making an automatic version of this car. Between that and the secondary Port injection that they forced onto the car (don’t get me wrong, I LIKE the dual injection), I don’t think Toyota had a whole lot of input On the mechanical design of the car.

Here’s a link that has some sparse info on the early development, But it’s mostly focused on the driving impression of the final prototypes. I’ll keep looking for the article I mentioned. https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...ototype-drive/

Another one:

@ichitaka05 You care to comment on this?

[JesseG]

Yoshoobaru I think it’s a little eye opening to dig into the full development of the twins. But I think it’s clear the twins absolutely would not exist without Toyota. What were Subaru’s plans with the AS1 concept?! Make a smaller AWD Impreza?
I think the twins are the product of a marriage of two really awesome car companies, that both have their strengths and weaknesses. It’s clear that Subaru provided the chassis, motor, brakes, etc Also many of the interior pieces feel like Subaru parts to me. Which I think is great because I have always liked the ergonomics of their interiors, and their sports seats.
But Toyota also contributed some very critical parts of the car, and it wouldn’t be a dedicated RWD sports coupe without their involvement. The fact is Toyota can do things Subaru can’t. The combination of Toyota and Subaru is a match made in heaven for me. I really hope they continue to work together on the 2nd gen twins and possibly other cars.
The pairing of Toyota and BMW.......ehhhh, it feels like a marriage for political gain or something. There is no real passion shared between the two companies. The BMW people didn’t even let the Toyota employees in their office when they first met.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by JesseG

Yoshoobaru I think it’s a little eye opening to dig into the full development of the twins. But I think it’s clear the twins absolutely would not exist without Toyota. What were Subaru’s plans with the AS1 concept?! Make a smaller AWD Impreza?
I think the twins are the product of a marriage of two really awesome car companies, that both have their strengths and weaknesses. It’s clear that Subaru provided the chassis, motor, brakes, etc Also many of the interior pieces feel like Subaru parts to me. Which I think is great because I have always liked the ergonomics of their interiors, and their sports seats.
But Toyota also contributed some very critical parts of the car, and it wouldn’t be a dedicated RWD sports coupe without their involvement. The fact is Toyota can do things Subaru can’t. The combination of Toyota and Subaru is a match made in heaven for me. I really hope they continue to work together on the 2nd gen twins and possibly other cars.
The pairing of Toyota and BMW.......ehhhh, it feels like a marriage for political gain or something. There is no real passion shared between the two companies. The BMW people didn’t even let the Toyota employees in their office when they first met.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Looks to me like both want to take credit since it was a success. If it had been a horrible failure each would say the other was responsible.
Someplace between the Subaru claims (which I have never heard before) and the Toyota development story (which I know very well) is the probable truth of who did what and when.


There is far more "normal" Toyota in the car than many think.


https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71898

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

I would prefer a larger displacement na motor over a turbo or supercharged setup. Flashy specs and racy emblems usually mean expensive repairs once the warranty runs out. As a matter of fact I wish the seemingly taller hood was hiding a inline Toyota

This guy swapped in a 2AR i4 into a FRS. The engine sticks out quite a bit.
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...=130611&page=2

Its hard to really get a sense of scale, but i would think the hoodline would need to be higher than shown on the 86 mule to fit an I4 without a hood bulge.