Delicious Tuning - NA Development Thread

[Mike_ZN6]

Originally Posted by Dom_J

It appears the FA is pretty stout, even when matched up the the JDM K20A(Crank 220hp/160tq @11.7:1). We're not far off. Subaru, Toyota, Yamaha put together a solid engine. What I would like our community to figure out is that solid "220whp setup."

I believe it'll come down to:
- E85(of course)
- 3"- 3.5" Intake
- 1st gen intake manifold
- Race Header(any de-catted will work but I think we could benefit from bigger primaries) 4-to-1 Might be ideal
- Full Exhaust(honestly, I think 2.5" will do it)
- Solid tuning

Just a matter of WHICH parts to use. We have a bunch of upgrades/parts that really just shift the power band around. Tuners like Bill have gave these things everything(witnessed when he came down to San Antonio to tune Justin's FRS). It's going to come down to the right parts application.

I see you suggested the 1st gen intake manifold. Have you seen dynos showing it to be better than the red one?

[nikitopo]

Smaller air intake temps with the 1st gen manifold?

[Dom_J]

Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz

The only thing that hasn't been very documented on this motor is cams and headwork. Ive only ever seen one example BUT iirc it made 200whp on 93oct equivalent gas. I think it was someone out of the UK. Important note it was running a standalone $$$$. Everything else you mentioned has been done good bad or indifferent.

Intake tracks larger than 3" aren't needed since we dont rev super high. RacerX tried it while prototyping their intake years ago.

Not sure why you chose the 1gen IM�� sir. In my personal experience with the black one compared to an extrude honed MY17, the red one was the clear choice.

I've run a 72mm TB in the past port matched to the IM. Easily more midrange and a little bit more top end. The MAFv increase was small enough percentage wise 3-5% in relationship to the larger area of the TB that I felt a bored over 67mm vs 65mm stock would net the same result soo that's what I currently have.

No surprise that slightly modded OEM parts are a better starting point than aftermarket I suppose.

Agreed on the cams/headwork, I feel like we have the perfect compression ratio to do amazing things but something is missing. I'm thinking on buying the 2017 manifold for a quick test and tune,

Definitely not looking forward to playing with thes MAF settings again with the TB but so be it. I think the intake may play a big part only to due to seeing 10whp differences on dynos based on small things. I have to check out the racer x fab

[Mike_ZN6]

Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz

Not sure why you chose the 1gen IM🤔 sir. In my personal experience with the black one compared to an extrude honed MY17, the red one was the clear choice.

I've run a 72mm TB in the past port matched to the IM. Easily more midrange and a little bit more top end. The MAFv increase was small enough percentage wise 3-5% in relationship to the larger area of the TB that I felt a bored over 67mm vs 65mm stock would net the same result so that's what I currently have.

It sounds like you have actually done some testing. What is the quantifiable difference between the black and red intake intake manifold? Is it actually worth it to swap to a red one? Considering the price of a used red intake manifold is about $300.

[churchx]

Imho not worth it. Gains on MY2017 come from four things, updated intake manifold, updated exhaust header, tune, less restrictive stock air filter. Are there some gains to be had with changing these? Yes, slight. Drop in aftermarket airfilter + tune will negate most of difference though. But if changing out all boltons, especially exhaust header, then aftermarket will net better gains per buck then retrofitting stock red manifold.

[Mike_ZN6]

Originally Posted by churchx

Imho not worth it. Gains on MY2017 come from four things, updated intake manifold, updated exhaust header, tune, less restrictive stock air filter. Are there some gains to be had with changing these? Yes, slight. Drop in aftermarket airfilter + tune will negate most of difference though. But if changing out all boltons, especially exhaust header, then aftermarket will net better gains per buck then retrofitting stock red manifold.

Yeah but the only aftermarket intake manifold that I know of is the Racer-X and it is like $900. And the Racer-X doesn't really have any proven gains yet. It is hard to justify the Racer-X over the 2017 Red IM when the price difference is $600+.

[churchx]

I meant all bolton intake/exhaust mods in general. There are bits (especially exhaust catless header) that will net tenfold what red manifold will at same price.

[PulsarBeeerz]

Originally Posted by Mike_ZN6

It sounds like you have actually done some testing. What is the quantifiable difference between the black and red intake intake manifold? Is it actually worth it to swap to a red one? Considering the price of a used red intake manifold is about $300.

This a dyno from Delicious tuning. The only change was adding a MY17 header and intake manifold to a MY15. The car already had a drop in filter and intake tube...






These are avg runs I got from virtual dyno. Yeah I know virtual dyno, but its better than an opinion with no substance behind it right? Same stretch of road, full tank of E85, HKS catless header, Greddy snorkel scoop, drop in Blitz filter, Mishimoto intake tube, 2.75" overfront pipe, Perrin catback and SAE corrected for weather conditions of that day. The numbers aren't as important as the trend from the runs of course. When I graphed raw MAFv it came out just like below as well.







I don't feel a MY17 IM by its self is worth it past looks. However if you are willing to go a step farther it is certainly worth it.
A 2mm bored over OEM TB is only $160 via Maxbore. My IM was port matched to the TB exit of course. The expensive step is the extrude honing at $550+.

[Lantanafrs2]

If I were trying to stretch this thing to make 220 whp I would buy the racerx manifold. With an aggressive tune you might get near 220 on a perfect day with proper planetary alignment but for a daily this is a fool's errand imo.
I would also consider a good header and catless system to be necessary.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz

These are avg runs I got from virtual dyno. Yeah I know virtual dyno, but its better than an opinion with no substance behind it right? Same stretch of road, full tank of E85, HKS catless header, Greddy snorkel scoop, drop in Blitz filter, Mishimoto intake tube, 2.75" overfront pipe, Perrin catback and SAE corrected for weather conditions of that day. The numbers aren't as important as the trend from the runs of course. When I graphed raw MAFv it came out just like below as well.







I don't feel a MY17 IM by its self is worth it past looks. However if you are willing to go a step farther it is certainly worth it.
A 2mm bored over OEM TB is only $160 via Maxbore. My IM was port matched to the TB exit of course. The expensive step is the extrude honing at $550+.

Nah.. Virtual dyno has an issue with the SAE correction. It is BS for our cars. I have used it already. The reason you get the 199 whp compared to the other 2 runs is the better intake temperature (65 vs 85 F ) and not the bored TB. I have a 67mm TB too and it is basically for better response. Try next time to make runs with same conditions or even better use a conventional dyno.

[PulsarBeeerz]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Nah.. Virtual dyno has an issue with the SAE correction. It is BS for our cars. I have used it already. The reason you get the 199 whp compared to the other 2 runs is the better intake temperature (65 vs 85 F ) and not the bored throttle body. I have a 67mm TB too and it is basically for better response. Try next time to have runs with same conditions.

No that's all incorrect, it would be nice if it was that simple. I don't just use the temp correction on the program. You have to normalize to your attitude, humidity and barometric pressure for that day at that particular time to SAE externally to this program. These are just the avg run of 3 different setups. They are taken from 50 logs over 6 months, yes even with higher intake temps.. Conditions change though out a day, just because the temp is the same doesn't mean anything else will be even an hour later. Also as I said before the trend is more important than the number itself.

Yeah we have the same size TB but that's about it I bet..If the setup isn't the same why bother mentioning it? Results come from the sum of parts not just the one.

[Ernest72]

Sounds like if you are trying to get the most out of NA then it might be worth the cost. But for most DD that want to stay NA, the cost per HP is high If just for looks, I paint my IM red before I spend money for a new one.

[Dom_J]

Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz

This a dyno from Delicious tuning. The only change was adding a MY17 header and intake manifold to a MY15. The car already had a drop in filter and intake tube...

These are avg runs I got from virtual dyno. Yeah I know virtual dyno, but its better than an opinion with no substance behind it right? Same stretch of road, full tank of E85, HKS catless header, Greddy snorkel scoop, drop in Blitz filter, Mishimoto intake tube, 2.75" overfront pipe, Perrin catback and SAE corrected for weather conditions of that day. The numbers aren't as important as the trend from the runs of course. When I graphed raw MAFv it came out just like below as well.

I don't feel a MY17 IM by its self is worth it past looks. However if you are willing to go a step farther it is certainly worth it.
A 2mm bored over OEM TB is only $160 via Maxbore. My IM was port matched to the TB exit of course. The expensive step is the extrude honing at $550+.

The MY17 definitely seems to be worth it albeit that hone job has a significant impact on the results.

I feel like your car/setup would be absolutely perfect for an intake shootout on a dyno. Call me crazy but I think that 10 whp will be found in an intake of some sort.

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

If I were trying to stretch this thing to make 220 whp I would buy the racerx manifold. With an aggressive tune you might get near 220 on a perfect day with proper planetary alignment but for a daily this is a fool's errand imo.
I would also consider a good header and catless system to be necessary.

For a $1000 the Racer X might not give the edge over the MY17 manifold in stock form, honestly. Price and performance wise.

I'd love for the actual company to take the time to post updated results(if they haven't already ie vs black manifold vs new MY17, maybe a video...its 2020). I mean, a big part of the price we pay is their R&D time and efforts, which I'm totally for. We just shouldn't be doing much "hoping and wishing" at a $1000. If it's aimed at F/I applications, cool.
Beautiful piece though.

I think we're getting to the point of more people having the capabilities to put this stuff to the test. Since we're on the topic of virtual dynos for what it's worth, this week's intake shenanigans with the dash command app/bluetooth OBD2.

1st 4th gear pull(left side) 72* outside 219hp/160tq @7280
TRD Intake(slightly modified; ie smoothed out inside)
GReddy Snorkel
Crawford BPB
Added timing up top to compensate

2nd 4th gear pull(right side) *89 outside 248hp/172tq @7456rpm
INJEN 3.5 SRI
Greddy Snorkel
Removed Powerblocks
Removed timing up top

I think I'm going to try again with the TRD intake and BPB's removed. I absolutely hate that 90* bend on intakes and that huge stepdown process of the INJENS from the 3.5" to 2.75" back up to 3"(hence why MAF was a pain but I have fuel trims at +- (0-2%). I'm going to dyno them all soon, making sure I have a tune scaled for each setup.


*EDIT* Did a re-run w/o the blocks on the TRD intake....much closer(second image)


TRD w/o BPB & optimized MAF scale - 244hp / 173tq

INJEN w/o BPB & optimized MAF scale - 252hp / 178tq

.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz

No that's all incorrect, it would be nice if it was that simple. I don't just use the temp correction on the program. You have to normalize to your attitude, humidity and barometric pressure for that day at that particular time to SAE externally to this program. These are just the avg run of 3 different setups. They are taken from 50 logs over 6 months, yes even with higher intake temps.. Conditions change though out a day, just because the temp is the same doesn't mean anything else will be even an hour later. Also as I said before the trend is more important than the number itself.

Yeah we have the same size TB but that's about it I bet..If the setup isn't the same why bother mentioning it? Results come from the sum of parts not just the one.

Check again your results. In your last (yellow) run you have better torque and power in the whole range of RPMs. This doesn't make sense with a bigger TB which can give an increase in certain RPM areas. The gain is basically from the lower intake temps. Our cars are sensitive to air intake temperature differences. It is estimated to get ~0.7HP for 1 ℃ of change. And how do you make a SAE correction outside the program? This is not possible in virtual dyno, unless you are manipulating the input. You mentioned also about altitude. If you don't make your runs in same road, then you create even more variables and you cannot rely to virtual dyno at all. Do a better search in this forum. All these discussions have been made years ago and a bigger TB is basically for better response. Stock TB is already quite large for NA application. There isn't a considerable performance change from any sum of parts in this particular area.