FA20 NA - how easy to wake up the engine and add “character”?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by alphasaur

Stock dynos 165ish and header and tune dyno is the lower 190/upper 180s from what I have seen

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...&postcount=224
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130575


Here's a link I googled quickly which seems to corroborate it, dunno? That's pretty consistent with most of the numbers I've seen. Maybe I'm wrong? Feel free to post evidence.

That is where things get messy. There are also plenty of stock tunes that come in around 180 and modified cars that come in around 170. Going by dyno numbers is really a waste of time when trying to compare different cars. They can have a huge range depending on machine, conditions, operator, etc. There are just too many variables to rely on dyno numbers as an accurate across the board statement.
I am no way disputing the gains to be had by doing the three things but simply the degree at which each one gives. The E85 WITH a tune and header may give you a total of 30 not just the tune and header. and most certainly not on it's own.

Also be very wary of "estimated" gains. You can't just stack the claimed gains of each thing on top of the other since it just doesn't work that way in reality.

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by weederr33

I guess the closest thing that comes to mind for me is a used Lotus Elise. At least in my area I usually find them around the $25-30k range. Then again, I'm of the mindset of modding, even a little can do good. I'm not going to leave a car stock unless it's a beater.

The Elise and Exige are probably the best drivers cars (street legal) on the planet. But there is no way you could daily drive one, unless you are a masochist. Even my FR-S feels a little too hardcore sometimes. Usually when I’m tired and want a more relaxing ride.
As far as adding character to the FA20 and keeping it NA, I think pretty much all the best options have been suggested. A tune, header, and intake, will all make the FA20 feel peppier and more responsive. Beyond that you start to go down the rabbit hole of chasing more power. At which point an engine swap or a different car seem much more attractive to me. I personally think the FA20 is a fun engine, and all I could ask for is a little more torque, I think 200HP is plenty for a ~2800 lb car.


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[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by weederr33

I guess the closest thing that comes to mind for me is a used Lotus Elise. At least in my area I usually find them around the $25-30k range. Then again, I'm of the mindset of modding, even a little can do good. I'm not going to leave a car stock unless it's a beater.

If you want a car just for fun, don't buy the FR-S. Miata, Elise, S2000, really almost anything with 2 seats is better...

The FR-S is a great do-it-all car on a budget. I used mine to move, give the roommates rides to the store, go skiing, etc. It has quite a bit more space than a watercooled 911, nearly on par with a 3 series coupe.

The engine will always sound terrible and the interior sucks, no matter what power adders you put on. An S2000 or Miata is just more pleasant to drive, and while I somehow haven't managed to drive an Elise yet, that car is on a completely different level of fast.

[alphasaur]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

That is where things get messy. There are also plenty of stock tunes that come in around 180 and modified cars that come in around 170. Going by dyno numbers is really a waste of time when trying to compare different cars. They can have a huge range depending on machine, conditions, operator, etc. There are just too many variables to rely on dyno numbers as an accurate across the board statement.
I am no way disputing the gains to be had by doing the three things but simply the degree at which each one gives. The E85 WITH a tune and header may give you a total of 30 not just the tune and header. and most certainly not on it's own.

Also be very wary of "estimated" gains. You can't just stack the claimed gains of each thing on top of the other since it just doesn't work that way in reality.

Yes, in the links I posted they are comparing to their stock numbers and show 20-25hp increases. The CSG graph shows a 22hp bump for the JDL and 24 for the ACE. The other guy shows a gain of 30hp. Different dynos will for sure show different numbers. 10-15hp for a tune and header is definitely on the lower side from all the dynos I've seen, but I'm sure some people have only gained that much. 30HP for a tune and header is likely also on the high side. Lets meet in the middle and say 10-20hp for a tune and header.

[weederr33]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

If you want a car just for fun, don't buy the FR-S. Miata, Elise, S2000, really almost anything with 2 seats is better...

The FR-S is a great do-it-all car on a budget. I used mine to move, give the roommates rides to the store, go skiing, etc. It has quite a bit more space than a watercooled 911, nearly on par with a 3 series coupe.

The engine will always sound terrible and the interior sucks, no matter what power adders you put on. An S2000 or Miata is just more pleasant to drive, and while I somehow haven't managed to drive an Elise yet, that car is on a completely different level of fast.

No.

[Sam86]

I’m running Tomei UEL headers, Xforce 2.5” catback and Wayne roms e85 tune and I’m pretty happy with the car.

Sounds awesome if you like deep rumbles and has pretty decent acceleration. Haven’t got a chance to fully experience the power I’m at but just daily driving on the streets the car definitely gets moving when you want it to.

[airrick]

I bought the car cause it looks good and its nod to the 90s/early 2000s cars. Waking up the engine wont really happen unless you go forced induction. Its not an old honda engine where you can do this with the mods you mentioned. If you do what many have said in the thread headers, tune and E85. You’ll spend quite alot just for 30hp at most and im being generous. In terms of responsiveness, it doesnt compare to the drive-by-cable cars, imo. Sound is too subjective, so i wont get into it. Driving feel is really good, its a driver’s car for sure.

The engine isnt really that special when compared to many. Yea its a good engine its not terrible but it doesnt response well to mods like others. I wanted the same things you want in the twins but yea not gonna happen. So i did the next best thing, i got both =P frs and rsx type s. Best of both worlds.

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by JesseG

The Elise and Exige are probably the best drivers cars (street legal) on the planet.

Brilliant, no holds barred track cars. They eat far more powerful and exotic cars for lunch with a capable driver. Just wish they weren’t so expensive and rare hereabouts. Still, that’s small scale, Lotus exclusivity for you!

But there is no way you could daily drive one, unless you are a masochist.

I’d totally daily one if they had more storage - and yes, I’m fully aware storage is not part of the design brief. I can only justify a one car garage, and I have a need to fit long items and sporting equipment in my car on a weekly basis. This basically rules out Lotuses and MX-5s for me, despite the fact I love these cars.

As far as adding character to the FA20 and keeping it NA, I think pretty much all the best options have been suggested. A tune, header, and intake, will all make the FA20 feel peppier and more responsive.

Exhaust will add some aural ‘character’ as well. It’s surprising how important sound is to the sensation of speed. After my first drive in an electric car, I was simultaneously impressed by the speed but disappointed in the lack of aural drama, which detracts from the feeling of speed, and definitely robs electric engines of character.

all I could ask for is a little more torque, I think 200HP is plenty for a ~2800 lb car.

I think it was fine for 2012, but performance has moved on by 2020. I agree that torque is the biggest deficiency though, especially in daily driving. I guess you can call the torque dip ‘character’ but if we are being honest, it’s more of a ‘character flaw.’ It’s possible to enjoy a car despite its flaws, just as we like people despite their flaws, but yeah, the stock FA20 engine is definitely the weakest part of the car.

[gen3v8]

I must admit the same basic mods to my STi and it has 150hp more at the wheels. Still the BRZ is fun.

[pallen]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

If you want a car just for fun, don't buy the FR-S. Miata, Elise, S2000, really almost anything with 2 seats is better...

An Elise is about impossible to find now and they generally aren’t in the same price range as a twin. You have to go pretty old to be affordable, so there will be issues. The S2000 is great but they also haven’t been made in 11 years or more - also it’s a ragtop. (Good ones list around $50k where I live) There’s the Miata. I would consider the new retractable hard top, but it’s never been on my list because I don’t want a convertible. The field is really not that wide if you want something hardtop and less than 10 yrs old.

My shortlist was a 370z, Miata, and an older Cayman. The Caymans were old and more expensive here, the Miata was a bit too small and impractical. I really liked the 370Z’s power, but it was also about $10k more for equivalent age and mileage, and just felt heavy after driving the 86.

The 86 was my pick. No, it’s not perfect for sure, but it’s a great choice.

[spike021]

IMO if you don't own the car yet and have only driven it a handful of times, but are already convinced its character needs to be "woken up" then honestly I doubt it's the car for you.

Seems like you got most of your info about the engine from just reading about it too.

The decision to buy a car should really be based on if you can impartially enjoy driving it, not if you can take biased stuff people have written about it and then look for what they've described.

Like when I first drove a BRZ it was an automatic and felt super slow, but it felt _right_ to me and I knew its characteristics were what I had been hoping for.

Buying it in manual and learning to drive stick with it made it even more exciting, because I learned how to rev it out and downshift at the right times to "beat" the torque dip.

Once you've gotten used to your own car is when you should consider mods to improve it in ways you think it needs to be. Not before you've even bought or driven it for long periods of time.

[TommyW]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

If you want a car just for fun, don't buy the FR-S. Miata, Elise, S2000, really almost anything with 2 seats is better...

The FR-S is a great do-it-all car on a budget. I used mine to move, give the roommates rides to the store, go skiing, etc. It has quite a bit more space than a watercooled 911, nearly on par with a 3 series coupe.

The engine will always sound terrible and the interior sucks, no matter what power adders you put on. An S2000 or Miata is just more pleasant to drive, and while I somehow haven't managed to drive an Elise yet, that car is on a completely different level of fast.

That's your opinion and unfortunately mine any most others will disagree. Had a Miata and would and did take the FRS over it in a heartbeat for many reasons especially the much flatter handling and lack of body roll.

Back seats and storage don't matter to me in the least. If you hate the interior you'd hate the Elise's even more. The FRS interior personally is great. No clutter and great seats and great driver position.


It comes down to if you want a roadster or not. S2k Is getting old and almost all have high mileage. An FRS with header and tune is a more drivable car with better torque and similar power and the FRS is a touch lighter. S2000 was and is an amazing car regardless.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by alphasaur

Stock dynos 165ish and header and tune dyno is the lower 190/upper 180s from what I have seen

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...&postcount=224
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130575


Here's a link I googled quickly which seems to corroborate it, dunno? That's pretty consistent with most of the numbers I've seen. Maybe I'm wrong? Feel free to post evidence.

Have to go off the delta, not the raw numbers. Most stock dynos I have seen are in the 170's. Not all dyno's are equal.

[Tacos4life]

Originally Posted by spike021

Like when I first drove a BRZ it was an automatic and felt super slow, but it felt _right_ to me and I knew its characteristics were what I had been hoping for.

Same for me. It was a less engaging car to drive with paddles, but turn in and feel for the road/slip were what hooked me in.