GR86/BRZ Track Comparison (Japanese)

[steverife]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Neither do I!
I don't know why they never learn this lesson, Japanese sportscar makers have often tried to have rear toe change (one way or the other) with bump and/or with lateral loading, and it has *never* worked out. 2nd gen FC RX-7, earlier 1st-gen NSX, early 2nd gen MR-2, AP1 S2000, Nissan HICAS rear-wheel-steering. C'mon, leave it alone! The best rear suspension setup in my opinion is to have as nearly ZERO toe change with lateral loading and with suspension compression as possible. Keeps the handling linear when pushing it hard near and over the limits of grip.

Hard to believe Toyota is still making this mistake of being "clever" with rear toe change under dynamic conditions. Frankly, I think it's stupid, gimmicky, and counterproductive.

I'm guessing they are not choosing a softer bushing to encourage dynamic changes at the limit, but instead for cost/comfort/noise reasons.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by steverife

I'm guessing they are not choosing a softer bushing to encourage dynamic changes at the limit, but instead for cost/comfort/noise reasons.

I think they are! The Supra does this too, even though no BMW does. On the Supra it was baked into the suspension geometry, not bushing compliance.

Japanese sports car designers seem to love an easy drift initiation at the cost of mid-corner stability.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by steverife

I'm guessing they are not choosing a softer bushing to encourage dynamic changes at the limit, but instead for cost/comfort/noise reasons.

They specifically want to differentiate the handling of the GR from the BRZ
Akio Toyoda deemed the new 86 too similar to the new BRZ, and told engineers to go back to the drawing board and differentiate the car from its badge-swapped sibling as best they can.
https://jalopnik.com/toyota-reported...ped-1846542445

From earlier in this thread, an interpretation from the vids:

Originally Posted by Jianlun

GR more playful, slides earlier, harder to hold a drift (we kinda already know this from press material)

Pretty sure the different bushings and geometry changes under load are specifically designed to make GR handle differently.

[steverife]

Fair enough.

Personally, I don't think I care. Outside the Nissans, people rave about the handling of the aforementioned cars and if I modded a car, that bushing is coming out anyway.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by steverife

Fair enough.

Personally, I don't think I care. Outside the Nissans, people rave about the handling of the aforementioned cars and if I modded a car, that bushing is coming out anyway.

I've owned and tracked a few of them, in every case rear suspension monkey-motion was undesirable, and just about every case there is an aftermarket solution specifically designed to correct the problem.

[iag48st]

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

If these MT-AT lap time differences for the new twins prove to be consistent, either the AT cars have less power and/or torque, or nothing at all has been done to improve the AT over the first gen. In either case, it's bad news for the AT buyer. There is just no excuse for the AT versions to be significantly slower on track in 2021. The negative effects of the extra weight of the AT cars should be more than offset by their more rapid shifting.

Huh?


One second difference in the GR and 6 tenths in the Brz is not bad at all.... I remember a compare vid from the first gen where the AT was around 2 seconds slower than the MT.

Looks like the 2nd gen auto is now pretty close in acceleration

[Kona61]

Originally Posted by iag48st

Huh?


One second difference in the GR and 6 tenths in the Brz is not bad at all.... I remember a compare vid from the first gen where the AT was around 2 seconds slower than the MT.

Looks like the 2nd gen auto is now pretty close in acceleration

Okay, that's true, but in just about every other modern performance car, the automatic equivalent is significantly faster. The M3, Golf GTI, Mustang GT, Camaro, Veloster N, etc.

[iag48st]

Originally Posted by Kona61

Okay, that's true, but in just about every other modern performance car, the automatic equivalent is significantly faster. The M3, Golf GTI, Mustang GT, Camaro, Veloster N, etc.

I agree. Those autos regardless of DSG/torque converters are faster than their manual counterparts; in the case of the twins the autos are geared for efficiency not performance as we all know by now. Can anyone verify if it’s the same case with the second gen?

I currently have a MT BRz (first one was AT frs and second MT frs), if the second gen is only a few tenths - 1 second slower than the MT on track, then I’ll be going for the AT (maybe) because plantar fasciitis

[MyHybridBurnsGasAndTires]

is the gr going to have red carpet available in the us? looks fantastic in some of these photos and i feel like it's been a loooong time since we've had a japanese car company offer it here in the US (s2k?)

[Jianlun]

another tech tidbit translate-able video. but i guess most info is old by now.

some other things i gathered:
1. engine is 5kg lighter (some attributed to the plastic manifold), which maybe means the comparison is vs the 2012 pre-facelift FA20.
2. oil cooler weighs a nice 2kg (big lump of copper probably).
3. something about (some one correct me if i wrong, i not too confident about this) a taller 2nd gear for the AT, so you change before the corner.
4. opened by the shifter "gate" to make it possible to go more diagonal from 3 to 2 (probably the first thing i gonna do when i get to sit in the MT car hahaha) than previous gen.
5. rear driveshaft uprated compared to previous gen.
6. new alu roof 2kg lighter than old steel roof, and they seem to say (i not too confident about this) this contributes 1.2mm of the 4mm that the car's CG is lowed by, compared to previous gen.

[steverife]

If it is an aluminum roof, these things are gonna get totaled left and right due to hail.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by steverife

If it is an aluminum roof, these things are gonna get totaled left and right due to hail.

PDR is a thing, and aluminum repair techniques in general have gotten much more mainstream in the last 15 years. I avoid body shops that pull the ‘oh no aluminum, we can’t fix that’ narrative. I had a body shop repair the AL fender on my SAAB in 2015, same repair cost as it would have been out of steel. Roofs are tricky to remove but like I said for hail damage PDR would be your best bet anyway. Either way steel isn’t impervious to hail either, especially with cars using thinner sheet metal on the skin panels than ever.

[steverife]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

PDR is a thing, and aluminum repair techniques in general have gotten much more mainstream in the last 15 years. I avoid body shops that pull the ‘oh no aluminum, we can’t fix that’ narrative. I had a body shop repair the AL fender on my SAAB in 2015, same repair cost as it would have been out of steel. Roofs are tricky to remove but like I said for hail damage PDR would be your best bet anyway. Either way steel isn’t impervious to hail either, especially with cars using thinner sheet metal on the skin panels than ever.

Unfortunately, I've gotten caught out in hail storms a few times (each beyond PDR) with my FRS. The roof fared significantly better than the hood each time.

...but my post was from a "maybe I can get a golf ball looking salvage title car to build for autocross" perspective.

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by Jianlun

Use Google translate.

10. And yes. There is artifical.sound.... I quote the article below (via Google translate)

"It is the existence of active sound control that supports it. This system, which lets you hear the power of the middle rotation range of 200Hz to 400Hz and the power of high rotation of 600Hz or more from the speaker after removing the miscellaneous taste, is a beat that seems to be a rotary engine, although the manufacturer is different It's interesting because it develops a sound that works."

Hmm... Thats very similar to how noise cancelling headphones work.

I assume they are taking the good bits and chopping the shit noise. Probably why it still sound genuine.