Frs vs s2000

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by brzaapi

I dont know what your primary vehicle needs/wants are, however I can tell you that the BRZs only real advantage over the S2000 is the extra space and the hardtop. If you are just a street driver, then the BRZ makes more sense if you are on the fence. But if you have any desire or interest in track time the S2k is superior in every way. Yes, even reliability.

For me it goes the other way. I do a decent amount of track days per year (about 8-12 days), and the FR-S just made more sense no matter how I looked at it.

- No need to buy roll bar and cut interior to install (required for certain tracks/events)
- Interior space to take 4 wheels/tires without a trailer
- New car is almost certainly going to be more reliable than a 7-18 year old car (experiences will vary, but I've only had to change a coil on my FR-S whereas every 5+ yo car I've had has needed some parts... radiator fans, struts, sensors, bushings, bearings, etc.)

The only advantage I could see for the S2000 was performance. But even then, I'm surprised the difference isn't greater. Over the years in advanced and intermediate hpde run groups, it feels like I've passed and been passed by equal numbers of S2000's. On the straights, my car (admittedly with full exhaust, tune) seems to match stock-power AP1 S2000's from about 70-120 mph. Maybe I was expecting too much, but it doesn't appear that S2000's are that much faster than the Twins on road courses. Not enough to outweigh the cons listed above, at least for me.

[brzaapi]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

For me it goes the other way. I do a decent amount of track days per year (about 8-12 days), and the FR-S just made more sense no matter how I looked at it.

- No need to buy roll bar and cut interior to install (required for certain tracks/events)
- Interior space to take 4 wheels/tires without a trailer
- New car is almost certainly going to be more reliable than a 7-18 year old car (experiences will vary, but I've only had to change a coil on my FR-S whereas every 5+ yo car I've had has needed some parts... radiator fans, struts, sensors, bushings, bearings, etc.)

The only advantage I could see for the S2000 was performance. But even then, I'm surprised the difference isn't greater. Over the years in advanced and intermediate hpde run groups, it feels like I've passed and been passed by equal numbers of S2000's. On the straights, my car (admittedly with full exhaust, tune) seems to match stock-power AP1 S2000's from about 70-120 mph. Maybe I was expecting too much, but it doesn't appear that S2000's are that much faster than the Twins on road courses. Not enough to outweigh the cons listed above, at least for me.

I agree with all your points. My first post meant to convey that. The practical aspects of space and hardtop. Meaning you dont need the roll bar and can carry tires.

And when i mentioned that i thought the S2000 was superior in virtually all the other ways, i meant performance. Reliability, is way too dynamic and varied of a topic to accurately tell someone whats best.

2 years ago i was in your boat. The BRZ allowed me to DD and track a car beautifully. No need for truck or trailer, and yes i could carry tools and tires when needed. I have progressed since then. I have a DD. I have a truck. And, i have an S2000 for the track. So my position makes a lot of the BRZ attributes over the S2k moot.

So, as you say the only advantage the S2k is performance. And, thats all i care about for my use.

So again, no wrong choices. Just a more right one for your particular needs.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

For me it goes the other way. I do a decent amount of track days per year (about 8-12 days), and the FR-S just made more sense no matter how I looked at it.

- No need to buy roll bar and cut interior to install (required for certain tracks/events)
- Interior space to take 4 wheels/tires without a trailer
- New car is almost certainly going to be more reliable than a 7-18 year old car (experiences will vary, but I've only had to change a coil on my FR-S whereas every 5+ yo car I've had has needed some parts... radiator fans, struts, sensors, bushings, bearings, etc.)

The only advantage I could see for the S2000 was performance. But even then, I'm surprised the difference isn't greater. Over the years in advanced and intermediate hpde run groups, it feels like I've passed and been passed by equal numbers of S2000's. On the straights, my car (admittedly with full exhaust, tune) seems to match stock-power AP1 S2000's from about 70-120 mph. Maybe I was expecting too much, but it doesn't appear that S2000's are that much faster than the Twins on road courses. Not enough to outweigh the cons listed above, at least for me.

Many people put too much faith in their butt dynos. The BRZ's real sweet spot for acceleration is 3rd, 4th, and 5th gear, whereas the S2000 starts becoming an unstable flying brick.

The S2000 *feels* much more raw, and as a result faster, but the reality is the power gap is not as large as you think, especially if you're comparing an Ace header + tune car vs a S2000 + test pipe + tune car.

[Deep Six]

In my experience, it seems the S2000's are about a second quicker than me at Roebling (19 vs 20) (2 miles) and 3-4 seconds at Sebring (32 vs 36) (3.7 miles). Assuming similar driver skills. Then I saw this video from NOLA which is a TTB record at 1:51 which is 10 seconds faster than I could do on my one and only visit there. I have no idea how this car is modified, but it's only 3 seconds off the pace of the Element car at Global Time Attack.


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fx2pdhZFKc"]NASA NOLA May 2016 TTB Track Record 1:51.234 - YouTube[/ame]

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Deep Six

In my experience, it seems the S2000's are about a second quicker than me at Roebling (19 vs 20) (2 miles) and 3-4 seconds at Sebring (32 vs 36) (3.7 miles). Assuming similar driver skills. Then I saw this video from NOLA which is a TTB record at 1:51 which is 10 seconds faster than I could do on my one and only visit there. I have no idea how this car is modified, but it's only 3 seconds off the pace of the Element car at Global Time Attack.

It's got aero.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Boofneenee

powerful response... I may just be that idiot who trades in a brand new car for one that is 8 or so years old and used.... mayhbe.. we shall see what happens this wkend

Do it, life is short.

Trade it in, S2k's aren't getting much cheaper (the nice ones anyway), enjoy it for a few years. Odds are if you keep the S2k in good condition you won't lose any money if/when you decide to sell it (unless you have to sell during a market downturn), hell wait long enough and keep it pristine and you might make money. In 5+ years who knows what will be on the market? And worst case scenario, in 2 years you think 'oh shit I made a mistake', take almost no loss on selling the S2k and pick up a nice used 86 for <$15k. Again wait long enough and the tides turn more in your favor, I bet in about 5 years you'll be able to find decent 86's for $10k.

Originally Posted by brzaapi

2 years ago i was in your boat. The BRZ allowed me to DD and track a car beautifully. No need for truck or trailer, and yes i could carry tools and tires when needed. I have progressed since then. I have a DD. I have a truck. And, i have an S2000 for the track. So my position makes a lot of the BRZ attributes over the S2k moot.

This is what the 86 taught me, for HPDE and autox and being casual I want something I can just drive there, thrash, and drive home comfortably.

If I'm taking a tow rig and trailer, I'm doing it because I'm banging doors and chances are not insignificant that the racecar will not be capable of being driven home. All about whatever floats your boat.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Many people put too much faith in their butt dynos. The BRZ's real sweet spot for acceleration is 3rd, 4th, and 5th gear, whereas the S2000 starts becoming an unstable flying brick.

It is remarkably stable at higher speed. Very satisfying, indeed.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Many people put too much faith in their butt dynos. The BRZ's real sweet spot for acceleration is 3rd, 4th, and 5th gear, whereas the S2000 starts becoming an unstable flying brick.

I had a chance to spar a bit with an instructor in a stock-ish AP1 S2000 (RS3's, XP10/XP8 pads, roll bar) this past weekend. We were trading places for 8-10 laps over 2 sessions. Reminded me of this thread so I tried to pay attention to power differences on the straight.

- From 70-100 mph the AP1 will pull 1/4 of a car length.
- From 100-110 mph the FR-S starts gaining ground back.
- At 110+ mph, it's like aero really takes effect on the S2000 (running top-down) and the FR-S pulls noticeably.

At speeds below 70 mph, the AP1 still seems to have the edge. I suspect the AP1 has more meat under the curve even if both cars have similar whp. Not a huge difference though, maybe good for 1/2 car length out of slower corners. Where I could gain some ground back was exiting fast sweepers.

Afterwards we were laughing how dead-even it was between the two. He thought the cars were running identical times. I might still give the edge to the AP1 on that track but very hard to say. A lot of fun though and a lot of respect for the S2000. He loved the FR-S as well when I gave him a ride one session.

[CSG Mike]

@DarkSunrise

AP1's have lower peak power than AP2's, but have the same effective AUC (area under the curve), since the AP1 gets to ride both sides of the power peak.

The F20C is somewhere in between, since it utilizes the entire rising side, but only a small portion of the falling side.

[GreenLightGo]

I own both a 02 AP1 S2k 22k miles w/ Bridgestone RE-71r tires and a 2013 Scion FRS w/ 57k miles with Michelin Pilot Super Sports. Both great condition. I've owned the S2k for 6 months (&5k miles) and GT86 for 3 years (&50k miles). I've tracked the GT86 4 times, and doing 1st track day in s2k next month. I've done several back to back spirited driving session comparison on the street recently. Long story short, I love both cars and prefer the Engine/Transmission of the s2k but prefer the steering/chassis feel and lower center of gravity of the GT86. I want a GT86 with a s2000 engine/transmission.

I want the s2k to be the perfect car, but still can't get over how good the GT86 steering and overall chassis handling is when I switch back and forth between each car. Any others that own both cars feel the same way? Am I crazy or missing something? S2k handling feels good, but I feel I can drive the at 10/10 on the Gt86 easier, more predictably, and safer than I can on the S2k (at least with my two car samples, both in stock form). Maybe this makes sense and is expected considering the AP1 is known to have a bit twitchy handling at the limit. FRS just seems more stable and controllable all around.. steering feel in turns, more stable under hard braking when threshold braking at the limit, and even in a straight under full acceleration while shifting.. and again the steering feel during all of these inputs feels better in Gt86. Perhaps the 14 yr old age of my s2k has affected the suspension balance and tuning of my sample (maybe I need to take it to a race shop here for a thorough inspection and freshening up). Also I think my front passenger side suspension may be out of spec... needing perhaps a new control arm or knuckle.. I was only able to get -0.5 degrees of FRight camber max (vs -1.0+ others normally)?? (my s2k alignment: FCaster 6.1deg, FCamber -0.4 deg max, FToe 0.0, RCamber -1.7deg (not maxed), RToe +0.24deg total). (On a positive note, my s2k subframe alignment is right on, and all the original bolts are tightened to spec.)

Help me improve my s2k please, LoL. Am I crazy for thinking the GT86 handles better than s2k? Any advice on what you have done to improve s2k steering/chasis feel or too settle down the handling to feel a bit more forgiving when driving at 10/10? I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking for as I like both s2k and gt86 agressive oversteer driftable handling... but I just want to improve the s2k steering feel and stability more in line with gt86. Perhaps I should have got the AP2 as it is known to be more forgiving with it's bigger tires, lower redline, softer rear end, heavier flywheel... but FRS still felt very controllable on the stock OEM prius tires when new even though those stock tires were very slick (front and back end would chirp and slide around and oversteer, but still felt very easy to control at 10/10 driving).

Hoping not to get flamed here too much, and not meant to bash the s2k at all. I love the s2k. However, I must also give credit to the Gt86 steering and chassis. Just in the effort of constant improvement, I'm trying to see if others shared similar feedback and any tips on what they have done to improve their s2k handling/steering feel and overall performance? Again, perhaps my s2k needs some tuning (starting with fixing my front right -0.5deg max camber)!? Perhaps I need to lower my car (to lower the center of gravity) and get the suspension carefully checked out and aligned.

[ST185RC]

^^^ S2K will never truly handle as neutral as an 86 in all it's iterations. The wheel base is nearly 5" longer on the 86 so inherently the S2000 will tend to demand much more attention to steering inputs from the driver than the 86 would demand.

http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/8188...nsion-springs/

You can see that the rear swaybar gets narrower year over year up until the CR as it was reported that the early ap1s were really snappy with a rigid rear.

Probably the easiest and possibly cheapest way to noticeably change the car's handling characteristics is with an adjustable rear sway bar and an alignment. Learn the car before changing any other suspension pieces is what I would suggest. I've autox'd and tracked a lot of S2000s and even stock suspension settings between AP1 is inconsistent but progressively got more predictable once I started driving AP2 in the stock classes.

[Sideways&Smiling]

Being easier to drive and handling better are two different things. It's simple physics/geometry. The S2000 is a short wheelbase, front-mid engine car with double wishbone suspension. It's going to rotate much faster and require more skill to drive aggressively... but that makes it a joy for those who can. The FR-S is more front-biased with a much longer wheelbase. This means it's going to be much more stable, easier to catch when oversteering, slower to rotate, etc.... The one area where it may be superior is steering feel, but when it comes to weight distribution and overall capability, what makes it "easier" is the same thing that makes it technically not as great of a performer.