Alcohol Injection

[lordtakuban]

Originally Posted by Ess Vee

Thanks for that lordtakuban!

From what I understand, a turbo/supercharger setup might not work as optimally without a methanol injection setup because of the already sky-high compression ratio. You'd be able to run higher boost levels with the benefit of chemical cooling that methanol injection gives.

Gotta definitely keep an eye on that reservoir though. I can't imagine anything good with an empty methanol reservoir. I'd just keep a backup quart in my glove box, or somewhere else in the car that's hidden.

Yep. That's why I have the Low Level Indicator. the light comes on at the half way mark. So you will have plenty of time to fill back up. I'll see if I can find some pics of my setup that I've already taken somewhere and post them here for reference.

Also, you don't *need* meth injection for a turbo'd vehicle. A good intercooler should help to cool down the intake charge. But the meth injection will give some other benefits too. There is just more maintenance with a meth/water injection kit than just a one-time install intercooler.

EDIT:
Here are some pics of the Snow Performance Kit I have installed:

What comes in the kit:


Here's where I have my reservoir and pump installed:


Here's how the reservoir looks with everything back in place:


Here's the injection spot just before the coupler to the Throttle body after the A2W intercooler:


And here's my controller (This pic was taken during installation and that area looks quite a bit more clean and refined now):


And this is what I put in the Reservoir:


I can't seem to find any pics of where I have the 2 indicator lights installed in my dash in the lower section of the center gauge (the Tach). Green for spraying and Red for low level. it's a pretty nice install, but for some reason I can't find any pics that I would have taken at this time.

[FT_Monk]

Isn't the BRZ engine is 13:1 compression? That is eye popping high compression and maybe the reason that stock tune is very rich. Adding methanol/water injection may let you lean out the fuel to make power without punching holes in the piston. Plus it keeps the combustion chamber clean.

[Nameless Performance Inc.]

Originally Posted by FT_Monk

Isn't the BRZ engine is 13:1 compression? That is eye popping high compression and maybe the reason that stock tune is very rich. Adding methanol/water injection may let you lean out the fuel to make power without punching holes in the piston. Plus it keeps the combustion chamber clean.

That being said, this is exactly why adding a meth injection kit to (especially a naturally aspirated vehicle) without a tune to accommodate the additional fuel (because methanol is a fuel, you are effectively enriching the combustion mixture by adding it) would most likely hinder power output. It's not to say that boosted applications don't use it successfully without a tune that optimizes its use, but if you already have an already rich running vehicle and you add fuel, you will lose power.

And to the earlier comment that using methanol has nothing to do with the fuel system because it is added into the intake, this is patently incorrect. Adding fuel to a vehicle, whether it's in the combustion chamber ala direct injection, at the port above the valve or upstream of the throttle is still adding fuel, and without a doubt, methanol is a fuel. And using it to absorb combustion heat certainly does not negate its impact as a fuel.

Now, the concept of running e85 on these engines is entirely more fascinating. I've been dreaming of building a nasty 15:1 N/A engine for a while and running it off of E85/E98 or some other variant of adulterated ethanol for quite some time now.

With the proper tuning solution, e85/e98 could allow for some serious increases in spark timing on the BRZ/FRS, yielding more power. The Mazdaspeed guys have had good success with ethanol based fuels in their direct injected engines as well from what I've seen.

Just my 2 cents.

Jason Griffith
Engineering Director
Nameless Performance, Inc.

[d1ck]

With methanol injection on these cars we should be able to safely increase ignition timing over stock the stock tune. This is due to the methanol increasing the octane of the mixture. It is worth noting that running a 100% meth mixture as opposed to a 50/50 water/meth would probably be most beneficial on an NA motor. This is because the water is there to cool the charge which has been heated by compression (think turbo or supercharger). This generally wouldn't apply to an NA motor as the iat shouldn't be very much higher than ambient temp anyways.
I'm very interested to see what meth injection + tune yields with this motor as I think it will work very well with such high comp. High comp loves octane!

[lordtakuban]

Doing straight methanol will eat up your plugs pretty quickly. And with how difficult it is to get to them on these cars, I would stick with a safer mix. IAT will still gradually get hotter with an NA. It will be nothing like the heat of a turbo charge, but there will still be some benefit to the water.

I would personally opt for safer long term use than the small gain you might get.

[arghx7]

100% methanol can easily preignite. Methanol is terrible for preignition. Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

[White64Goat]

This mornings episode of Horsepower on Spike TV did a whole big segment on the Snow Performance system. They installed it on a 572 cu. in. crate motor that pulled 700 hp on 110 race fuel. They removed the race fuel, replaced it with 93 octane pump gas and then installed the Snow system. It made less hp and they had to do some carb tuning. Reduced the jets from 92 down to 87 and fiddled with the timing eventually settling on around 40 degrees total timing and pulled 733 hp. Maybe the show is available 'On Demand'? Then they installed a system on a new supercharged Hemi Challenger......... I just checked my DirecTV and they do NOT have Horsepower available for on demand. If you are on the west coast, you might still be able to catch this mornings episode.

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by arghx7

100% methanol can easily preignite. Methanol is terrible for preignition. Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

I've heard the same thing for Ethanol, surprisingly, on the internets.

[arghx7]

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

I've heard the same thing for Ethanol, surprisingly, on the internets.

Ethanol is slightly better. The key is the spark plugs and the richness of the mixture...

[jedibow]

Originally Posted by arghx7

Ethanol is slightly better. The key is the spark plugs and the richness of the mixture...

Very true, usually have to drop a heat range (colder) in the Evo's. But I have to ask, why are there so many magical pony threads about octane on here lately? I think Serial, Argus, and myself have answered this so many times...

IF YOU DON'T TUNE FOR IT YOU WILL MAKE JACK! The ignition timing map CANNOT advance beyond it's specific load v. Rpm look up cell*any barometric, or temperature multipliers, sorry it won't happen...

G

[diodelphi]

good

[diodelphi]

Originally Posted by arghx7

Ethanol is slightly better. The key is the spark plugs and the richness of the mixture...

stock spark plug is 9 and is so cooler than 2grfee (it is 6)

do you think it should be cooler?

[Aussie Tuner]

One think people forget is that the FA20 engine with the 12.5:1 compression ratio is very fuel sensitive and easely knocks before the ECU applies corection and retards the whole timing map if bad enough.
Its my opinion that water/ethanol injection properly set up can overcome this condition of fuel variability keeping the advance at the optimum values, thus a more constant performance against fuel variability.

[woode]

06-13-2012, 08:48 AM