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FR-S / BRZ vs.... Area to discuss the FR-S/BRZ against its competitors [NO STREET RACING]


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Old 01-29-2020, 02:38 PM   #15
YamahaR86
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On another note, there are tangible differences between the 13-16 cars when compared to the 17-up cars with the advantage for the newer samples.

Agree with you there. The 17+ cars have better suspension setup, being that they are newer makes sense since they can refine it.



HRI Tuning has had trouble with 17+ cars going FI though, the engine's rods notably. Like you said, if you plan to stay NA go with the newer.
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Old 01-29-2020, 03:16 PM   #16
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I owned a 13 Frs and I can say. i'm much happier in the s2000. but i do regret selling the frs. it was just more of a car i could use on a day to day basis.
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Old 01-29-2020, 09:13 PM   #17
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I had a 2006 Civic Si (original owner) and traded it in for my 2013 10 Series (original owner).


The Alcantara seats on the Si were superior.
Handling on the FR-S is better.
Shifting on the FR-S is better because it's not notchy in the least and never prone to occasional grinding like the Si (transmissions were never one of Honda's strengths).
V-Tech makes you feel like you're faster and the lack of the twins' torque dip just reinforces that.
Si back seat was more comfortable.
Clutch is pretty much the same.
FR-S looks more sporty and being built from the ground up makes it unique whereas I hated people thinking the Si is just a Civic with a MTX.
Always felt the Si would end up chopped and sold for parts to riceboys (happened all the time).
Hated posers that would change a muffler tip, rims, and slap on a Si badge.
Si has more OEM accessories.
Aftermarket parts are comparable and plentiful.
Never worried about the engine due to Honda's stellar reliability, whereas the boxer engine is not exactly typical and some variants are reliability nightmares. I had a RX-7 that I loved but I will never get a car with such a dramatically unconventional engine.
I like how the Si is a complete Honda product (except for the notchy MTX) and Honda did promote it where Toyota and Subaru treat the twins like they don't exist.
Si can't drift and the paint was pathetic.
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Old 01-30-2020, 02:28 PM   #18
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It was absolutely terrifying back in the day the threat of Honda’s being stolen. All of my friends with a performance Honda had either parts stolen off the car or the entire car stolen. My buddy with a ITR wouldn’t park anywhere he couldn’t easily see the car. It was crazy.

I know Honda manual transmissions are usually considered some of the best, like in the S2000 and ITR. The 86 is pretty close, like others have said it’s not quite as smooth shifting, but it’s direct and mechanical. All of the cars mentioned take some warming up to feel the best, and they can be temperamental. I suppose that is the price for affordable performance.


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Old 02-04-2020, 02:31 AM   #19
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The FA20 does have some low end grunt when compared to the Honda offerings but it falls very flat in the upper rev range. Absolutely nothing when you put the foot down! The engine feels like it struggles harder and harder as the rev climbs. For a NA engine that is suppose to shine in the upper rev range, this is quite the shortcoming. And the FA20 sounds/feels like a unrefined truck with odd vibrations here and there, especially the 13-16 cars.
I'm trying to remember what it was like stock (and maybe I'm just used to running e85/tuned), but the upper RPM range is where the FA20 feels the strongest IMO. It's gutless below 4000 RPM, but once it climbs out of the torque dip it pulls relatively hard until redline. If you haven't tuned for e85 yet and it's an option, you should give it a shot. It'll give that feeling of pulling to redline and definitely doesn't feel truck-ish at all.

To give you a sense of what the powerband is like, here's a dyno of an e85-tuned BRZ. Notice it holds 150+ lbs-ft (or more) of torque from 4000-7000 RPM. That's actually a wider powerband at the top end than an AP1 S2000, for reference.



Here's another thread with an e85 dyno, this one holding 160 lbs-ft from 4000-7000 rpm.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1499241
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Old 05-14-2020, 08:51 AM   #20
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I'm trying to remember what it was like stock (and maybe I'm just used to running e85/tuned), but the upper RPM range is where the FA20 feels the strongest IMO. It's gutless below 4000 RPM, but once it climbs out of the torque dip it pulls relatively hard until redline. If you haven't tuned for e85 yet and it's an option, you should give it a shot. It'll give that feeling of pulling to redline and definitely doesn't feel truck-ish at all.

To give you a sense of what the powerband is like, here's a dyno of an e85-tuned BRZ. Notice it holds 150+ lbs-ft (or more) of torque from 4000-7000 RPM. That's actually a wider powerband at the top end than an AP1 S2000, for reference.
Sorry, I missed this reply. E85 is not readily available here in Canada hence its not an option for me. From my reading, in terms of bolt on, only an uncatted header and tune will largely correct the torque dip. Anything else is more for sound. To add any serious power, it has to be FI which I don’t want to explore as it’s a DD that goes through winter, (reliability) and the associated costs.

I have now owned the BRZ for 6 months and put on 5k kms, fun kms as they are mostly put on for random drives during the lock down. I can confirm the car’s speed is very similar, maybe slightly faster, than the 8th gen SI. It’s just the way the power is delivered is not very exciting. The car is easier to drive around town because of the available torque down low. But the highlight of the car is the chassis. It turns very well and very S2000 like on the street but with a safety net of electronics. I also found the factory Michelins matching the stock car very well for street use. With better tires, the speeds to have fun on public roads will be insanely high.
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Old 05-14-2020, 10:12 AM   #21
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Sorry, I missed this reply. E85 is not readily available here in Canada hence its not an option for me. From my reading, in terms of bolt on, only a uncatted header and tune will largely correct the torque dip. Anything else is more for sound. To add any serious power, it has to be FI which I don’t want to explore as it’s a DD that goes through winter, (reliability) and the associated costs.

I have now own the BRZ for 6 months now and put on 5k kms, fun kms as they are mostly put on for random drives during the lock down, I can confirm the car’s speed is very similar, maybe slightly faster, than the 8th gen SI. It’s just the way the power is delivered is not very exciting. The car is easier to drive around town because of the available torque down low. But the highlight of the car is the chassis. It turns turns very well and very S2000 like on the street but with a safety net of electronics. I also found the factory Michelins matching the stock car very well for street use. With better tires, the speeds to have fun on public roads will be insanely high.
The timing of your post is actually quite good. A few weekends ago, I got to drive some canyon roads in a friend's stock AP2 and we did some back-to-back comparisons against my modded FR-S. Very interesting driving them like that. Even though in our testing the two cars were almost identical in acceleration (or the e85 FR-S was slightly faster, oddly enough), my friend made the same comment as you that the powerband isn't as exciting on the FR-S.

I think need more seat time in the AP2 to understand the excitement comparison, or better yet drive one at the track. My initial impression from the canyons is I liked the sound of the AP2 better, but I preferred the power delivery of the FA20 on e85 (at least in the canyons) because the powerband is broader (4500-7500 RPM). I actually came away thinking I might like the F20C over the F22C for that very reason.
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Old 05-15-2020, 07:43 AM   #22
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I think need more seat time in the AP2 to understand the excitement comparison, or better yet drive one at the track. My initial impression from the canyons is I liked the sound of the AP2 better, but I preferred the power delivery of the FA20 on e85 (at least in the canyons) because the powerband is broader (4500-7500 RPM). I actually came away thinking I might like the F20C over the F22C for that very reason.
Again, the FA20 not necessarily slow for 200hp. But the following reasons is why I think the FA20 is very blend:

- The unwillingness to rev as the rpm climbs. It just feels like the engine is struggling harder and harder as you push it.
- The torque curve. You get a shit load of torque in the lower part of the revs and you would expect this sensation to increase as rev climbs. Instead, it’s the exact opposite which is further exaggerated by the torque dip.
- The sound it makes is not particularly good/desirable.

When compared to the Honda power plants, everything I have listed above this is the exact opposite. When “VTEC hits yo”, it just keeps pulling all the way to limiter. Engine sounds great as it’s pushed. Just gives you a better overall sensory experience. I think savagegeese was bang on with his assessment: “great car with the wrong engine”.
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Old 05-15-2020, 01:07 PM   #23
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Again, the FA20 not necessarily slow for 200hp. But the following reasons is why I think the FA20 is very blend:

- The unwillingness to rev as the rpm climbs. It just feels like the engine is struggling harder and harder as you push it.
- The torque curve. You get a shit load of torque in the lower part of the revs and you would expect this sensation to increase as rev climbs. Instead, it’s the exact opposite which is further exaggerated by the torque dip.
- The sound it makes is not particularly good/desirable.

When compared to the Honda power plants, everything I have listed above this is the exact opposite. When “VTEC hits yo”, it just keeps pulling all the way to limiter. Engine sounds great as it’s pushed. Just gives you a better overall sensory experience. I think savagegeese was bang on with his assessment: “great car with the wrong engine”.
I think my FR-S being on E85 makes it difficult to compare our experiences. I'm going for another drive with my AP2 friend tomorrow in the mountains, but I'm guessing I'm still going to end up preferring the FA20/E85 powerband, at least in backroads driving. The AP2 powerband feels narrow to me outside of a track setting. For what you get in top end, you give up that and more in the midrange.
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Old 05-16-2020, 08:51 AM   #24
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I think my FR-S being on E85 makes it difficult to compare our experiences. I'm going for another drive with my AP2 friend tomorrow in the mountains, but I'm guessing I'm still going to end up preferring the FA20/E85 powerband, at least in backroads driving. The AP2 powerband feels narrow to me outside of a track setting. For what you get in top end, you give up that and more in the midrange.

Right, as I have never driven a E85/tuned 86 car either so maybe your experiences wouldn't be quite the same as mine. I do see your point of a narrower powerband but I have an AP1 that revs to 9k so I have less of a problem than an untuned AP2 (revs to 8k). I think overall, the general speed on/off track is very similar between the 2 cars. But my knock on the FA20 is not about the speed/power, it's about the amount of fun and overall satisfaction that the F20/F22 provides when compared to the FA20. Again, the 86 provides a very complete package, especially at the price point. I just wished the powerplant was more exciting.
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