05-08-2020, 01:06 AM | #57 | ||
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BTW, pretty interesting thread/comparison this one... |
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05-08-2020, 10:51 AM | #58 | |
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Some great suggestions here. Thanks (and also to @CSG Mike). Looking forward to seeing how his AP2 does with some upgrades. Any thoughts on AP2 brakes? They were starting to go towards the end. Simple pad upgrade good enough for canyon runs (and possibly light track usage)?
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05-08-2020, 12:00 PM | #59 | |
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05-08-2020, 07:37 PM | #60 | |
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Imagine if a 50k "pure" sports car was built today for the s2k's production numbers, with no regard for actual performance. It wouldn't sell, but it would be a badass car. Some counterpoints. The F2xC's emissions are a few orders of magnitude higher than the FA20. A lot of Honda guys will point out that Honda made 200hp/2L engines way earlier than the FA20, but if you compare even the more modern K20 to the FA20, the K20's emissions are over an order of magnitude higher, and takes 1000 more RPMs to make the same peak power. While the FA20 is very budget oriented, it's got quite a few impressive points to it as well. You may not have been around for the original S2000 owners but I was. Back then, 280whp was considered the maximums safe boosted power for the F2xC. Then that number bumped to 300. Then 320. Then 360. As development happens, the safe numbers go up, and it took 20 years to get to where we are now in F2xC development. Case in point, I have an incredible amount of miles and hard driving hours on my 350whp FA20. Still on the original engine. Bought a spare years ago, and it's still sitting. Each of the 3 mentioned motors all have strengths and weaknesses, but for pure satisfaction, the F2xC wins, hands down. Disclosure: I own both a F2xC powered car, as well as a K20 powered car, in addition to my turbo BRZ. |
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05-08-2020, 07:38 PM | #61 | |
T64-416Ax3=13,140shp
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With that being said, from my understanding (again, I have never tracked either cars), the Twins are slightly faster around a circuit because of the lower CG (as you already mentioned) and better aero design of the Twins. Of course, a long track may change this equation and of course, driver skill. Both are very competent track performers, especially if you do the correct mods to the cars. Personally, I would probably go with the Twins for a track car because it costs a lot more money to increase the performance of the S2K, partly because it's already so well engineered from Honda. If I was choosing one to be a DD, again I would go with the Twins because they have a more modern cabin that is roomier and more comfortable for long trips/DD. This is an important point for someone who is also over 6' and/or 200 lbs., the S2K becomes almost impossible for people bigger than this to drive comfortably and/or fit in if they are trying to add track gear. So you can see I am not necessarily biased towards the Honda on these matters. I think the S2K is a very niche car and one that will certainly make you happy. It really is suited to be a "weekend warrior" and/or car someone wants to enjoy it for it what it is. The engineering and build quality is second to none. Even though my S2K is 18 years old now, much of the car still feels as solid as it did when new. I have one small rattle from the passenger seat when I drive the car and that's it. Everything still works and nothing is suspect on the car. I would also add, for anyone looking to buy one, the only mod I would do for any year S2K (just to be safe) is to upgrade the OEM TCT with the Billman250 TCT who's over on S2KI (I'm not affiliated with him). If you have the F20C engine, I would also upgrade the engine oil squirter banjo bolts to the F22C ones (if you are in the NA market). The AP2 F20C engines got this upgrade from Honda starting in 2004 if I recall correctly.
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05-08-2020, 07:39 PM | #62 | |
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05-08-2020, 07:58 PM | #63 | |
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I agree with everything you said and if you go back and look at my OP in this thread, I put in a disclaimer about the budget differences between these two chassis. No doubt the Twins are much cheaper because of their intended purpose. Again, I'm okay with that. I was also a first adopter on this chassis, buying a 2013 FRS (look at my forum join date). It too was a DD for 2 years and I put 30K miles on it, again with no issues. If I had kept it, I certainly would have started modding the $hit out it once the warranty had expired but alas, I got married and well, you know how that goes. I don't dislike the FA20, I even stated earlier that it is a *good* engine, but the layout is certainly not easy to work on for the average person and when the days comes for a replacement head gasket(s) or something similar, it's going to require engine out of chassis for such work. Again, for the serious tuner oriented person, probably not a big deal. Of course, having an aviation background and growing up with a grandfather who could work on anything with an engine, I learned that accessibility is a worthwhile design feature unless other engineering requirements preclude that. It's all give and take. For this car, they engineers prioritized a low center-of-gravity to give it the great handling characteristics that it has. This comes with a price though that people need to consider when comparing cars for possible purchase. That's all I am saying and of course, well, Subaru does Boxer engines so there's that. The FA20, at least in the first couple of years, didn't evoke a lot of excitement from me but again, that's subjective to some degree. I still bought one though and am still considering another one (though at this point, might be worth waiting to see what happens with the second generation Twins and we know the pandemic is putting a big hit on the auto industry). You and I are both lucky, we have had both of these cars and gotten a lot of seat time in each. Certainly you are way more experienced on the track than me, that's why I have been working with your company for the past year with purchasing parts to build my S2K into something a lot more than it is from the factory. I'm not trying to say one is better than the other, just trying to provide input for the person who is looking at this thread because they are maybe trying to decide between these different vehicles and their differences are. Not everyone is as fortunate as us to be able to own both and do racecar stuff with them. One of these, I'll post my build thread up of my S2K, with a detailed listing of what it takes/costs to turn an S2K into a serious track machine. I know you know the answer to that question already. More the reason for someone on a budget to go with the Twins!
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05-08-2020, 08:01 PM | #64 |
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Yeah, go look at my bank statements.
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05-08-2020, 08:20 PM | #65 |
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05-08-2020, 08:21 PM | #66 |
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I wish honda offered a s2000 refresh program like they do with the NSX.
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05-08-2020, 08:21 PM | #67 |
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Oh, and to clarify one of my earlier statements, I do see where I said "I dislike the FA20" but that wasn't what I meant to say (starting to sound like a politician). I was trying to say that it wasn't as exciting of an engine I had hoped for. And apparently Toyota agreed somewhat, because based off Ichitaka's comments, Subaru could have done a better job if they had listened to Toyota. Toyota does know a thing or two about building high quality engines. It's a shame they have relied so heavily on other companies of late to produce their sporty cars.
BTW @CSG Mike didn't Toyota/BMW just produce a 50K+ "pure" sports car that is badass? Is it not selling?
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05-09-2020, 01:44 AM | #68 |
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Haha yes I saw that. Btw not sure if you saw my ninja edit, but recommended pads for aggressive street/light track use? We faded his pads in the canyons and I'm going to try to bring him out to some future track events so looking for pads that will tolerate a novice level driver.
Personally I'm a fan of carbotech, but never tried their street-oriented pads. Also I don't trust my ft86 knowledge to translate over to the s2k platform.
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05-09-2020, 04:37 AM | #69 | |
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You already know how much people resist upgrading brakes, saying novices will be okay, etc etc. The s2k has more power, more weight, with smaller brakes. Whatever "works" on the 86 needs to be more extreme on the s2k, to also work similarly well. I wouldn't start anything short of a XP10 with the s2k. You'll need to bed his pads for him to get them silent, but once properly bedded, XP10 and XP12 will be completely silent on the s2k. XP10 f/r or XP12 f/r. Or, try the CSG CX1. |
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05-09-2020, 04:46 AM | #70 | |
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