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Old 04-13-2022, 01:45 PM   #267
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Those are weird cool looking little cars. If it had awd, I'd be down to have one as a winter beater!
Yea, that was the first one I had really paid attention to, and I liked it, at least from the back/side angle I had. It was the Supersonic Red with black roof model. It could have been the "Nightshade" edition.

A little more motor and AWD, I might consider it.
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Old 04-13-2022, 02:45 PM   #268
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Yea, that was the first one I had really paid attention to, and I liked it, at least from the back/side angle I had. It was the Supersonic Red with black roof model. It could have been the "Nightshade" edition.

A little more motor and AWD, I might consider it.
They look cool
We test drove one when looking to downsize my wife's car. Grossly underpowered even for what they are. Old school CVT that doesn't help one little bit. Back seat even more useless than the 86 (yes I said it). A cramped driver's position with a horrendous screen sticking up. All in all a horrid driver car.
They do look cool.
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Old 04-13-2022, 03:01 PM   #269
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They look cool

We test drove one when looking to downsize my wife's car. Grossly underpowered even for what they are. Old school CVT that doesn't help one little bit. Back seat even more useless than the 86 (yes I said it). A cramped driver's position with a horrendous screen sticking up. All in all a horrid driver car.

They do look cool.
I thought I had a harsh view of it lol. Yep I concur, I'd only add that the tailgate space is very disappointing as well for something that classes in the practical side of vehicles.

Technically these things do have AWD offered in Asia, but it appears it can only do so with the 1.2L turbo. I can only guess it's a packaging issue. I suspect we didn't get this engine because the output of this turbo engine is even lower than the 2.0L we already get.

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Old 04-13-2022, 03:21 PM   #270
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I always wondered why the CHR never came with AWD here Im sure that contributed a good amount to it not selling as well as they hoped...

....maybe due to the motors it got never had an AWD system paired with them as far as i know.....

Plus i found out the Chinese market CHR (called Izoa) can be had with the 169hp dynamic force 2.0 from the Corolla......
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Old 04-13-2022, 03:42 PM   #271
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They look cool
We test drove one when looking to downsize my wife's car. Grossly underpowered even for what they are. Old school CVT that doesn't help one little bit. Back seat even more useless than the 86 (yes I said it). A cramped driver's position with a horrendous screen sticking up. All in all a horrid driver car.
They do look cool.
Yea, after looking at it's specs I pretty much figured that. It can probably barely get out of it's own way with the CVT and a whooping 100HP,but it does look cool.
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Old 04-13-2022, 03:55 PM   #272
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I always wondered why the CHR never came with AWD here Im sure that contributed a good amount to it not selling as well as they hoped...

....maybe due to the motors it got never had an AWD system paired with them as far as i know.....

Plus i found out the Chinese market CHR (called Izoa) can be had with the 169hp dynamic force 2.0 from the Corolla......
If it had AWD with the engine and trany I test drove we would probably still be trying to get up to sped to get out of the parking lot.
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Old 04-13-2022, 04:24 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by spcmafia View Post
It is being reported that some dealerships in the NE region are asking $500 Deposit, refundable, but you're taking a $10,000 markup. With a wait time of roughly 6 months.

Toyota has been made aware of this, but since dealerships are privately owned, there's not anything that can be done.

Worth mentioning that some dealerships are guess-timating a MSRP of $31,000.



https://www.carscoops.com/2022/04/gr...23-gr-corolla/
Well, they can do something. It's whether or not they will.

They can threaten dealerships allotments for those that play the markup game. That being said, I doubt they will.

In the meantime, they can be reported and tracked at Markups, so hopefully it hits the dealerships' bottom lines.
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Old 04-14-2022, 09:46 AM   #274
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My deposit is with a dealer that only sells vehicles at MSRP. I think I'm in a good position...assuming they get allotment of 1 Circuit Edition, lol
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Old 04-14-2022, 11:21 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
They look cool
We test drove one when looking to downsize my wife's car. Grossly underpowered even for what they are. Old school CVT that doesn't help one little bit. Back seat even more useless than the 86 (yes I said it). A cramped driver's position with a horrendous screen sticking up. All in all a horrid driver car.
They do look cool.
You canít seriously be saying the C-HR looks cool when you hate the look of the CTR. What kind of bizarro land have I stumbled into.
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Old 04-14-2022, 11:47 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
Enthusiasts will show up if there is value. A 460hp Camaro or Mustang for $35k is a pretty good deal, and the sales figure support that value. Add up the sales of the Mustang, Camaro, Challenger/Charger, and enthusiasts are buying a lot of sporty vehicles, in the hundreds of thousands. I mean if anyone looks at the top vehicle sales, it seems like the Asian manufacturers do fine at producing some of the top CUVs and sedans in terms of production numbers, yet the sporty car market seems a little lacking in sales from them by comparison. Someone can get a F250 starting at $37k or a GT Mustang, but a turbo AWD 1.6L will probably be $40k+ from Toyota with low-volume dealer markups. It is a formula that is set to fail. It didnít work out too well for the Focus RS either. They need to price it right and have enough volume to avoid markups to get the car out there, so it can do the marketing for their others cars and CUVs and pull more people into the Toyota family. Just my opinion if I was doing the marketing strategy.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g3...ing-cars-2021/
I couldnít disagree more with almost everything youíve said here. Only thing that makes sense is enthusiasts will show up if there is value.

Vehicles like the Focus Rs, CTR, GR86, Civic Si, Veloster N etc.. are the most value oriented enthusiast cars out there, consumers are just too stupid to see that or are what youíre calling an enthusiast, which is really just a phoney in my opinion, they donít care at all about cars. I know a shit ton of people that have, according to you a more valuable enthusiast car than myself, yet donít even know how to change their own brake pads, or even talk about their cars in detail beyond what exists on the brochure.

Calling a Mustang and Camaro with 400+ hp a good value is pretty tongue in cheek. The people that consider examples like these good value donít drive their cars, all they care about is how they look in them, and if thatís youíre kind of enthusiast, the car world is destined to fail big time.
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Old 04-14-2022, 11:56 AM   #277
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You canít seriously be saying the C-HR looks cool when you hate the look of the CTR. What kind of bizarro land have I stumbled into.
You are correct. I was referring to the two tone paint part of the conversation when I said looks cool. That does work on them. All the fake vents and random swooping lines not so much.
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Old 04-14-2022, 01:53 PM   #278
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You are correct. I was referring to the two tone paint part of the conversation when I said looks cool. That does work on them. All the fake vents and random swooping lines not so much.
Yea most of what caught my eye was the well executed paint job on the one I saw as well, but I'm a sucker for a red car with black accents.
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Old 04-14-2022, 02:30 PM   #279
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My deposit is with a dealer that only sells vehicles at MSRP. I think I'm in a good position...assuming they get allotment of 1 Circuit Edition, lol
I'll take your spot if you decide you don't want it. LOL.
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Old 04-14-2022, 02:39 PM   #280
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I couldn’t disagree more with almost everything you’ve said here. Only thing that makes sense is enthusiasts will show up if there is value.

Vehicles like the Focus Rs, CTR, GR86, Civic Si, Veloster N etc.. are the most value oriented enthusiast cars out there, consumers are just too stupid to see that or are what you’re calling an enthusiast, which is really just a phoney in my opinion, they don’t care at all about cars. I know a shit ton of people that have, according to you a more valuable enthusiast car than myself, yet don’t even know how to change their own brake pads, or even talk about their cars in detail beyond what exists on the brochure.

Calling a Mustang and Camaro with 400+ hp a good value is pretty tongue in cheek. The people that consider examples like these good value don’t drive their cars, all they care about is how they look in them, and if that’s you’re kind of enthusiast, the car world is destined to fail big time.
Typically when someone thinks of a driver's car that a "true" sports car enthusiast would want, they think of a light weight, compact, low, communicative, engaging, "quick", manual transmission, etc kind of car, which ends up sounding more like a Miata/86, Lotus, Gordon Murray T50 than a Mustang/Camaro, Porsche 911/Nissan GTR or Bugatti Chiron, respectively. These enthusiast cars are often slower than their counterparts in almost every metric except when driven flat out at 10/10ths on a race track, so they seem to have less value to anyone other than "true" enthusiasts, but they are more engaging to these enthusiasts, so they sell in lower volumes to a niche market. The Focus RS versus a Mustang GT with a performance package are similarly priced, which the RS still being more expensive. For that, the RS is slower in every metric, yet it is 0.71 seconds faster on the Nurburgring, yet maybe it is more of a "true" enthusiasts car. How is a smaller vehicle with less "stuff" just as, or more, expensive than the other? The nearly identical Ecoboost engine from the RS is in the much cheaper Mustang Ecoboost; is AWD so expensive? Obviously there is a premium to be paid for a low-production, niche car, and the car becomes a niche car when the value proposition is only to "true" enthusiasts who see the value the car has at 10/10ths or in general engagement.

FOCUS RS VS MUSTANG GT
https://www.cjponyparts.com/resource...-vs-mustang-gt

Now, if we open the enthusiast market to more cars than just "true" enthusiast cars then we get everything across the spectrum including the heavier GTs and pony cars like GTRs, top Camaros, 911s, etc, and for the price, a Camaro SS is a good value proposition, and a Camaro ZL1 1LE at $65k starts pulling faster Nurburgring times than 911 turbos, the value proposition goes up for the "general" enthusiast. A $40k Focus RS or CTR that gets marked up to $50k+ by dealers because it is a niche car loses its value and appeal. I get that the world is more and more fixated on lap times, 0-60 and other performance figures that don't always correlate to what enthusiasts may value from the perspective of emotional engagement, but selling emotional engagement has become increasingly harder and harder to sell. Why?

Cars have become so expensive relative to wages that most of the general enthusiasts are looking for value, so it is cheaper and easier to make a car powerful and quick in most metrics at 8/10ths, while sacrificing engagement and weight and performance at 10/10ths. In fact, all of the growth has occurred in top earners, so not only are manufactures more likely to cater to older buyers who have the money to buy cars, but they are more likely to produce premium sporty cars than economy sporty cars knowing that the top earners are more likely to be buyers. Yes, a Mustang GT from 2015 is going to have much more performance than a Mustang GT from 1965, but this just means an exceptionally engaging car becomes an increasingly unaffordable proposition if manufactures continue to benchmark relative prices to yesterday's performance. This is why a Mustang GT costs $35k today when it use to cost $20k in 1965 when adjusted for inflation.




Have cars really grown more expensive since 1965?
https://www.hemmings.com/stories/201...since-1965/amp

Now, circling around to enthusiasts who "drive" their car. The Focus RS like the GR Yaris and like this GR Corolla are rally, inspired cars. How many "true" enthusiasts will be rally racing their cars or going off road? Will they be pushing their cars on mud, dirt, sand and snow to 10/10ths? I doubt it. Do CTR drivers hit 10/10's on public roads often enough to justify the premium over a sporty car that does 8/10's better? Are the majority of owners of these cars likely to be any less posers than owners of Mustang GTs and Challangers doing nothing but donuts at 2am behind my house? Probably not.

This is coming from the owner of a K24 turbo swapped BRZ, but the value of these low-production, niche cars is going to get smaller and smaller each year, as cars continue to get more expensive for the average family and as the sporty car market moves more and more upmarket to older and more premium buyers. The best value for enthusiast cars will be tailored more to the general enthusiast, and even then that relative value gets smaller too, as prices climb. The offerings for the "true" enthusiasts will require these enthusiasts to setting for the scraps and be willing to pay for the engagement at the expense of performance or continue to be pushed out of the market, as these "true" enthusiast cars become ever less common and more and more premium to afford.

PS. So everyone in a CTR or Focus RS is a true enthusiast who works on their car and doesn't drive a loud looking CTR to be a poser, but all owners of pony cars are just posers screaming for attention who don't work on their cars or drive them hard? Really? Listen, I respect and like the CTR, and I prefer my BRZ with a K24 over a Mustang anyway, but I don't allow my personal tastes to bias my perspective. There are plenty of Matt Farah types, who own a Focus RS and are undoubtedly car enthusiasts, and who are "true" car enthusiasts, as far as most people are concerned, who don't wrench on their own car, either for lack of ability, time, value, space, risk vs reward, etc., so I wouldn't box out a whole group of enthusiasts for never picking up a wrench, not knowing the ins and outs of every component on their car, or for never reaching 10/10ths with their car.

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