FR-S vs S2000

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I think you need to study up a bit more on how a torsen diff works....
They don't LOCK, the torque biasing is limited (typically ~3-5:1), and depends on torque application.

You've got it backwards, Torsens *are* for newbs, which is why they come in more cars from the factory (Miata, S2000, etc.). Not many (any?) cars come from the factory with clutch-types, and it's not because they're too newb friendly!

I've driven both in multiple cars. My 255rwhp 240Z had a clutch-type, my S2000 has the stock torsen, my 500+hp FD has a Torsen T2R.

The Clutch type does have the advantage of continuing to drive the wheel on the ground when the other wheel is airborne (T2R also does this, but not most Torsens...).

Clutch types are usually shimmable to give you pretty much as much bias as you want, up to locked. You can EASILY have them WAY more "hardcore" than Torsens.
My preference for clutch types is to run the minimum breakaway initial torque I can get away with and rely more on the ramps to provide lockup under power.
Never agreed with the approach of shimming the bejeezus out of them to the point that you may as well have welded the diff!

Anyway, I like whatever diff always allows me to put the power down to both drive wheels without inducing too much oversteer or otherwise acting goofy for no good reason.

while i agree with you, i dont think torsens are in stock cars because they are noob friendly. i think price and maintanence are the primary factors at play

[Gardus@Supersprint]

Originally Posted by ultra

If they still made the S2K this would have been a much tougher choice.

On the one hand the S2K seems destined to be the better performer since it has that extra 40hp and proper double wishbone suspension.

The new 86 (against a brand new S2K) would trade a little edge and speed for slightly more accessible dynamics and an added dose of practicality for a little less money.

It would have been a tough choice because I love S2Ks but the reality we've got is a choice between a new 86/BRZ and used S2Ks, which changes th game a bit. If I had to spchoose one right now to keep for the next 4 or 5 years it'd have to be the 86/BRZ if only because the car will likely still be n production, whereas even the newest S2K will be around 8 years old in 4-5 years.

Both awesome cars. I like to see the 86/BRZ not as an 'enemy' of the S2K but an opportunity to own someing which combines some of the best attributes of the Miata, S2K and RX8 in a time where most cars are getting boring and flabby.

ù

I completely agree with this.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by G4mb17

Yeah, have ordered my BRZ and will trade my AP1, my list was more visual:

Things I like better about my S2000:
exhaust tips: the BRZ has a small pipe in a large tip to look big. S2000 just has larger pipes.
Gear shift knob (S2000 has a nice optional titanium one) S2000 has no options
Cup holders, S2000 has none, BRZ seemed to have 2 Ap2 has 2
tranmission tunnel. S2000 was higher and fabric covered, BRZ has lower and plastic - this made the cabin feel nice and cosy
Power, about the same up to BRZs red line, but S2000 develops more from 7500-9000 red line - which I didn't use oftern as the car had to be warm. False, the S2000 has more power above 5500 rpm
A/C vents on BRZ - they look cheap
climate/stereo controls point to the driver in the S2000 and could be operated without looking.

Things I not big on the BRZ
spoiler, would rather none or a big one.
stock wheels - will replace
Prefer the Toyota nose
Prefer the Toyota86 badges because the 86 has good history.

Things like like about the BRZ
Colour (Blue Pearl)
wheels 45s rather than 50/55s on S2000 Get an AP2
more storage for weekends away
has a roof! Better rear vision (not plastic) - hopefully better noise AP2 has glass rear window
analog RPM gauge
stereo/nav, will hopefully be able to hear it on the motorway now
better mpg

Things I like about both
seats
gear shift
steering wheel

I've yet to drive the BRZ, but I always felt a little on edge in the S, I'm not the best driver in the forum, and it always felt like it was waiting for me to make a mistake so it could put me in a hedge backwards. 2006 and newer S2000s have stability control

It really sounds like you just need an AP2 S2000.

[Gardus@Supersprint]

Are we talking about the 2000 or 2200 cc version?

I had the 2000 cc (my00) and the BRZ seems a lot easier to extract the max performance.
The S2000 can be unnerving in traffic.

[Symbiont]

Originally Posted by fernan2

I know that I may be in the minority, but I really don't care about dragging my BRZ at all. I'd never take this car into a 1/4 mile race without heavy modifications, in the first place, and that isn't something this car was designed to do, regardless.

I would have loved to get a s2000, but I can't even fit in the car, let alone enjoy it. My friend has given me a ride in his frequently (~400whp, supercharged, etc.) and the thing is a blast, but my head sticks up above the windshield.

I can fit in the BRZ, have fun through the twisties, and use it as a DD. To me, that means the BRZ wins.

[Jordo!]

Originally Posted by fernan2

Ugh.

[iLuveKetchup]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I think you need to study up a bit more on how a torsen diff works....
They don't LOCK, the torque biasing is limited (typically ~3-5:1), and depends on torque application.

You've got it backwards, Torsens *are* for newbs, which is why they come in more cars from the factory (Miata, S2000, etc.). Not many (any?) cars come from the factory with clutch-types, and it's not because they're too newb friendly!

I've driven both in multiple cars. My 255rwhp 240Z had a clutch-type, my S2000 has the stock torsen, my 500+hp FD has a Torsen T2R.

The Clutch type does have the advantage of continuing to drive the wheel on the ground when the other wheel is airborne (T2R also does this, but not most Torsens...).

Clutch types are usually shimmable to give you pretty much as much bias as you want, up to locked. You can EASILY have them WAY more "hardcore" than Torsens.
My preference for clutch types is to run the minimum breakaway initial torque I can get away with and rely more on the ramps to provide lockup under power.
Never agreed with the approach of shimming the bejeezus out of them to the point that you may as well have welded the diff!

Anyway, I like whatever diff always allows me to put the power down to both drive wheels without inducing too much understeer or otherwise acting goofy for no good reason.

This. I've driven the s2k with the OS Giken 1.5 LSD at the auto-x and it was amazingly awesome! There are only a couple of mods that gave me that feeling of euphoria - clutch LSD and purple crack (Hoosiers). Clutch type over a torsen, without a doubt!

[Gardus@Supersprint]

The M3 E46 and later M-cars has a clutch diff with the % variable electronically.
I'm not sure abou the Evo and Subaru diff, maybe the centre one is a clutch type.

[Opposed]

Hey everyone,

Wow, I don't mean to come in between this argument or discussion, but just came from an AP1 S2000 into a 2013 FR-S. Being that im at work right now, and we have all seen that stats im not going to to into much detail right now, but I will answer any questions anyone may have. My 02 S2K had intake, test pipe and 4.77 final gears. I owned that car for 5 years and drove it to 100k miles. I had a blast in that car but also had a winter beater. My goal was to go down to one car, have something new and more practical to own and yet still have fun driving. And to be honest, I have not felt this way in years about a car before, not even the S when I got it. I just can't stop thinking about driving this Scion! I want to drive it to the mail box, and to bring the garbage down...This is the perfect car for ME. Sure, I gave up some performance and the hand built legend that was the S2000. But daily driving, with the DIS, this thing is easier, and has more torque and midrange punch than the S did down low, even with the gears. This is the first brand new car I have owned and so far, not a single regret. Again, let me know if anyone has any other questions about comparing the two, I will help out as much as possible.

[5upa_mari0]

I currently own a S2000 AP1 modified, my uncle works for Toyota Scion and the FR-S is a very nice car, however in many ways the S2000 IMO is a better car. Seeing you can get an s2000 used for around 20+ you get more aftermarket support (right now) from turbo's, supercharger's, gears and tuning. One of the smoothest transmissions ever built, a forged internal engine capable of hold over 450whp all day, and over 600whp driven on weekends. You get double wishbone vs mac strut suspension, we call know which is better... so maybe once the FRS/BRZ gets cheaper it may be worth getting them then however the S2000 is a much better car other then maybe a daily driver once you modify it lol

[suzuka]

Originally Posted by Opposed

Hey everyone,

My 02 S2K had intake, test pipe and 4.77 final gears.

wow

that gear is overkill for the streets

did you specifically get that gear for street driving to always stay in VTEC range at low speeds?

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by Gardus

The M3 E46 and later M-cars has a clutch diff with the % variable electronically.
I'm not sure abou the Evo and Subaru diff, maybe the centre one is a clutch type.

The Evo X has an active clutch type center and rear diff and helical/torsen front diff. The STI has an active center diff and helical/torsen front and rear diffs.

[Opposed]

Originally Posted by suzuka

wow

that gear is overkill for the streets

did you specifically get that gear for street driving to always stay in VTEC range at low speeds?

Not overkill at all. I daily drove that car over 100k miles. I think the stock gearing is a joke on the S. I was getting raped by Dodge Caravans from stop lights. Have you driven an AP1 with gears? It was a completely different car. If I ever get another S, the gears will be the first thing to go unless I went boost. And no, VTEC engaged at 6k stock (which you may know by your screen name) It was still only at about 4800 at 70-75 mph.

[Opposed]

Originally Posted by 5upa_mari0

I currently own a S2000 AP1 modified, my uncle works for Toyota Scion and the FR-S is a very nice car, however in many ways the S2000 IMO is a better car. Seeing you can get an s2000 used for around 20+ you get more aftermarket support (right now) from turbo's, supercharger's, gears and tuning. One of the smoothest transmissions ever built, a forged internal engine capable of hold over 450whp all day, and over 600whp driven on weekends. You get double wishbone vs mac strut suspension, we call know which is better... so maybe once the FRS/BRZ gets cheaper it may be worth getting them then however the S2000 is a much better car other then maybe a daily driver once you modify it lol

I fully agree, but to each his own. I live in a state where it snows 5 months out of the year. My S was 10 years old with 100k miles on it. It has squeaks and rattles. The top had to be replaced twice, ect. I had to have a winter beater as well. Gas for two cars, insurance for two cars, maintainence for two cars let alone both were old. Now I can have one car, a NEW car, cheaper payments, cheaper insurance, with a warranty and free maintainance for two years. I have never looked back personally after trading the S in. I wasn't a "S2000 was the end all of sports car" guy like a lot of them on the forum. I appreciate all vehicles. And this was the most practical car for ME that felt the closest to an S. Im no S2K noob either. MN is the home of Fullblown which holds the record for a stock block F20.