06-10-2021, 05:09 PM | #729 | |
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Efuel reduces CO2 emissions by ~85%. It's made from capturing CO2 from the air or industrial emissions and combining it with hydrogen. Might not even have to change the pumps at the gas station. https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/i...ars-after-2030 Now, making hydrogen is energy intensive. So, maybe we should stop ****ing around with toxic battery BS and start putting some serious work into figuring out easier ways to obtain hydrogen. It's only the most abundant element in the universe. - https://phys.org/news/2020-07-harves...nogardens.html I grew up not far from the Rock of Ages granite and marble quarry in VT. I've been to the site a number of times and removing millions of tons of stone leaves quite the scar on the landscape. But that's a drop in the bucket to the tens of millions of tons of earth that would need to be strip mined and then refined with sulfuric acid to make tens of thousands of tons of lithium in the case of the Thacker Pass mine. At least a rock quarry could eventually be repurposed as a reservoir or man made lake, can't so much do that with a strip mined superfund site. https://usa.streetsblog.org/2021/02/...-costs-of-evs/ |
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06-11-2021, 01:02 AM | #730 | |||
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I'm curious what this fuel will cost. Porsche says their cost would currently be around $38 per gallon. Quote:
It would be nice if we could use hydrogen. It would require a huge increase in our energy grid beyond the requirements for BEVs because of the reduced efficiency. We still need to build batteries with FCEVs, but smaller ones, so this could be a good solution if we can scale renewables. Hydrogen ICEs is possible, but it isn't a great idea. Hydrogen will definitely be in our future. I don't think it will be adopted as fast as BEVs. Quote:
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...e-green-energy Also, Tesla is working on a sulfate-free process to harvest lithium pulled from mines in Nevada: There are also plenty of people working on alternatives to lithium ion batteries. There are already alternatives that can be used for grid storage that are far cheaper and better than lithium too, where size/energy density isn't as important as car batteries.
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06-11-2021, 07:59 AM | #731 | |
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06-11-2021, 04:31 PM | #732 | |||
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Let's get theoretical for a moment. I never lived in a house that had more than 100 amp main service until I moved out of New England, you can't charge a BEV with that kind of electric service unless you plan on shutting down every appliance in the house while charging. Would it be easier to increase the delivery of energy or even onsite production at a handful of regional e-fuel production facilities ? Or would it be easier to go around one by one to millions of homes just in VT, NH and Maine and rip out all the old wiring and pull millions of feet of new wire to update those houses to potentially support home EV charging ? And do it all by some arbitrary date set forth by politicians ? And that's the best case scenario where we assume the transmission lines coming from the local power distribution center (or the distribution center itself) can even handle the increased load. Brownouts on hot days where everyone turns on their AC is already an issue in many places. I'm sure cost per gallon would go way down once it was being produced in quantities outside these early experiments. Especially with advances in growing hydrogen catalysts to increase production efficiency as in the second link I posted. 15 years ago a single 100kwh battery pack was absurdly expensive, increased research and development along with increased production could do the same for e-fuel as it did for battery packs. Quote:
See above. Burning hydrogen directly is not the idea. Mix it with the CO2 and make synthetic hydrocarbons. This retains our existing fueling infrastructure for everything from lawn mowers to aviation and marine applications which for many of those things will not be electrified anytime in the near future (if ever). Quote:
Liquid fuel is not going anywhere for a long time. There are far too many military, industrial, agricultural and even recreational requirements. What would be needed is a complete revolution in both drastically smaller, lighter, multiple megawatt batteries and solar panels that can produce multiple tens of kilowatts per hour in a few square feet of space. This makes an even bigger case in developing nations and areas where the electric grid is much more limited or even essentially non existent. *Removed pictures and video links to make quote smaller* |
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06-11-2021, 05:42 PM | #733 |
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I personally know a lot of people who buy large Trucks/SUVs for no other reason than because they perceive them as being safer than smaller vehicles. The idea being that they don't want to be the smaller vehicle in a given collision if they can help it. The possibility to use the vehicle for it's intended purpose if the need arises plays into it. I can't comment on the validity of this line of thinking without having done any research but it's definitely a feeling people I know have.
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06-12-2021, 12:26 AM | #734 | |
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E-fuels would need to get far cheaper, but that might never happen. Consider the cost of petrol. You think making synthetic petrol will be the same price as pulling it out of the ground and refining it? Synthetic petrol will be really expensive. It will also take a lot of green energy to produce the synthetic fuel. More energy than just feeding the grid more energy. They make electric boats, electric lawn mowers, FCEV planes—just saying. Remember, we don’t need to eliminate all CO2 production. We don’t need a 747 to be electric if everything else is electric. Hydrogen fuels and synthetic fuels are better suited to these applications than for mass transport.
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06-12-2021, 06:14 AM | #735 | |
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I'm not sure the charge at work idea holds water. I've never worked in a place that had any kind of parking setup that would be conducive to people charging their cars. Now, I admit that is anecdotal and might be atypical but the charge at work idea has some issues IMO based on my personal work experience - 1. Need to have parking areas that would could be easily (read: not very expensive) to electrify every (or nearly every) parking space. 2. Providing charging for 200+ vehicles. At most I think you would be lucky to see a handful of spots and hope that somehow the 50 or so people that would want to be bothered doing the "charge my car shuffle" at work could process through the queue every day. 3. The daily office commute is dying rapidly. I work from home. My wife works from home. I only know 2 people that still commute to an office and they might be working from home within the next year. The rest of the people I know travel to various job sites throughout the day and don't have a "base" where you could simply plug in and forget about your car for an 8 hour shift. Now, obviously working from home means no commute so less miles traveled. That works in the EV's favor unless you can't easily charge at home so now you just go sit at the charging station for 45 minutes every time you need to "fill up". I'll pass on that. To the potential cost of e-fuel, petrol would be dirt cheap if it weren't taxed out the ass. Synthetic fuel might very well end up being cheaper than fossil fuel if the powers that be resist from onerous taxes on every gallon. Again lets go back to how expensive lithium-ion battery packs used to be. Large scale production brought lithium packs down from ludicrously expensive to somewhat economically viable. Would e-fuel somehow be magically immune to market forces ? I'm a small town guy and have been so for nearly my whole life. I used to commute to the "city" and I don't see BEV's could be anything but an inconvenience to my life as it currently is. From what I've seen in the "city" it would be even worse for those people who don't have dedicated parking or have to park on the street. |
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06-12-2021, 08:24 AM | #736 |
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Wtf?? All the promo I've seen for hydrogen fuel has said the only exhaust is H2O. No one has ever mentioned NOx to me before!!
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06-12-2021, 10:36 AM | #737 | |
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https://www.fastcompany.com/1678206/...s-dirty-secret https://www.greencarreports.com/news...uel-cell-sedan
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06-12-2021, 11:56 AM | #738 | |
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Even in California, total gasoline taxes is less than a dollar, but fuel is currently over four dollars a gallon. That seems high compared to most consumer goods, but it isn’t prohibitively high for the vast majority. The cost of e-fuels would come down, but there is no reason to believe they would be less than petrol, even if they weren’t taxed, but of course they would still be taxed. Meanwhile, the current projections suggest they would require five times the infrastructure as EVs and cost consumers 40% more than EVs: https://www.greencarreports.com/news...s-vs-batteries
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06-12-2021, 01:48 PM | #739 | ||
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but the overall load of a car charger is very similar to an a/c unit. car chargers are all over the place, and some like the tesla charger, have jumpers to set the maximum allowed charge rate. chargers can be anywhere from 20A-80A, the tesla charger has a minimum 40A setting. using that 40A setting, and assuming that the only major electrical appliance in the house is a roughly 30A a/c with all other heating/cooking/cleaning appliances being gas heat, there's no reason a 20-40A charger couldn't be added onto a 100A service. Quote:
but that estimate assumes the current purchasing/usage/maintenance/retirement cycles. when the latest certified clean idle laws were enacted on new semi trucks a number of years ago, it significantly reduced gas mileage on the rigs, as well as increased maintenance cycles(ask any diesel guy about how much they love when the trucks go into regen), and many of the larger trucking outfits took to buying up 10-20 year old, nearly worn out non-clean-idle trucks, and would entirely rebuild the truck so they would essentially have a 20 year old brand new truck. i'm still seeing the old, old flat front semi's on the roads specifically because of this. i expect that we'll start to see something similar to a cuba-esque industry pop up of people unwilling to convert to electric, where they buy up and re-build otherwise unimpressive ICE vehicles to make a 'old' new vehicles to skirt the law, furthering how long the goal of the transition is going to take.
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06-12-2021, 04:30 PM | #740 | ||
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Point I'm trying to make is that electrification is not a one size fits all solution and something car manufacturers and politicians need to keep in mind before trying to shoehorn everyone into the same box. Massachusetts is doing something similar to California and I'm interested to see how it turns out there because there are just as many, if not more, really old houses that have not been updated in decades. Add in mandates that more renewables need to be utilized in a region where the sun might not shine for weeks and wind is much harder to utilize due to terrain and climate. The skeptic in me has the feeling the state of Mass might end up quietly walking back some of these promises/mandates if it turns out the whole thing wasn't as feasible as they thought. Quote:
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06-12-2021, 04:50 PM | #741 | ||
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"It would cost automakers an average 10,000 euros (about $12,000 at current exchange rates) in emissions credits to cover synthetic-fuel cars in 2030, but battery prices could drop to 3,000 euros ($3,600) by that time, according to the paper. It would also cost five times as much to set up synthetic-fueling infrastructure than continued expansion of charging infrastructure, the paper said." Makes me think the greatest variable in the quoted "cost" projections are because of carbon credit taxation schemes and not because e-fuel would be inherently much more expensive to produce. The idea that e-fuel will always be much more energy intensive to produce based on the small quantities currently being produced with current technology is about as short sighted as the people who were saying that a BEV could only ever have <100 mile range 15 years ago. |
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06-12-2021, 04:51 PM | #742 |
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That's if you are burning it, not if you are using it in a fuel cell. At least that's my understanding.
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