Toyota 86 vs 2.0 Supra

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by Bluefire98

Man I know it's not german but what's wrong with Subaru interiors? Even old ones. I'd gladly put up an older impreza against a new sentra or versa. The seats and steering wheel along in a wrx go a long way for me.

I love Subaru interiors, simple and durable with really good ergonomics. I can’t stand dashstrokers always whining about soft touch materials. Do you really put your hands on every surface of the interior?!
I want good seats, steering wheel, shifter, pedals, and gauge cluster. The rest can be simple and durable. T/S build excellent cars and underrated interiors.


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[jflogerzi]

The 2.0 supra is a terrible buy. Way better cars at that price point. 86 all day long over 2.0 Supra

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[etherdude]

I enjoyed the video and it hit all of the right spots for me. I am on my second 86, graduating from a 2015 Ultramarine FR-S to a 2020 Hakone Edition. Both Manuals. I daily drive these in New England, using snow tires/wheels in the winter. I am a musician and need to carry my instrument (a small tuba like instrument) to gigs.

As I looked at the Supra, the interior space was a BIG issue for me. I can get my euphonium, music boxes (I am librarian), music stand, and other accessories either in the trunk, or if I need to carry even more, I just put the seat down. The 86 can carry an AMAZING amount of stuff.

The 2020 Hakone is enough more refined than my 2015 FR-S, that it checks the boxes I needed for climate control, more solid, slightly less noisy, and still uproariously fun to drive.

At the price of the Supra (4 cyl or 6 cyl), and with its MUCH wider tires, I would start to get concerned about using it as a daily driver.

SO glad I stayed with my 86 and pleased that I get a final year of production model with exactly the features my Hakone manual has.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

The cars are somewhat comparable spec wise but i dont think theres going to be as much cross shopping as one would think with that price gap.

If it was like 2-3k difference yeah there would be some cross shopping but we're talking about half the price of one of the cars......

On a side note, I actually think the Supra looks better proportioned with the smaller 2.0L spec wheels.....

Its a good thing the cars are as different as they are. If the overlap feels as close to one as the other, then that kind of kills the purpose of one of the cars.

And the price difference is what a turbo Twin with a better interior, more soundproofing, sturdier drivetrain and a fancier body would cost. Yet so many seem to think they should be able to get all that at a bargain basement price.
There would be no place for one of the cars for sure and which one would they drop?

[mrg666]

Out of the dealer, Supra is the better car in every way; power, transmission, wheels/tires, suspension, exhaust sound, interior ...

If I get the 86 again, JRSC, suspension, oil cooler, exhaust, wheels/tires will be replaced immediately since I know what difference they make and I can't really accept the car as it is anymore.

If someone asks recommendation, considering the voided warranty to make comparable cars, Supra would be my recommendation. But my heart tells me 86. For myself, I would buy 86 and build it again exactly as I have right now. Cost is the same but 86 is what I want.

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

And the price difference is what a turbo Twin with a better interior, more soundproofing, sturdier drivetrain and a fancier body would cost. Yet so many seem to think they should be able to get all that at a bargain basement price.
There would be no place for one of the cars for sure and which one would they drop?

People will say
drop the 86 because the rear seat delete and cheap interior, and 200hp

Then they'll complain that the Supra is too small, doesnt have enough power, and has too many fancy doodads that they dont need and is overpriced!

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

People will say
drop the 86 because the rear seat delete and cheap interior, and 200hp

Then they'll complain that the Supra is too small, doesnt have enough power, and has too many fancy doodads that they dont need and is overpriced!

Exactly!

[Irace86.2.0]

What the 2.0 Supra has over the 86, which isn't necessarily saying these things make the Supra better or that these features should have value to you, but these are the features that Toyota uses to justify the difference in price:

Obviously there is greater quality. Parts are made to a greater finish, strength, materials, etc. Paint is nicer, thicker and more robust. Knobs and buttons are more premium. Lighting and sound is more premium. Features are more plentiful. More sound deadening. Potentially thicker glass and stuff like that which is normally found in a more premium class vehicles that give them a more solid, less squeaky and less tinny/cheap feel. For torsional stiffness or development into a unique body and chassis. Bla bla bla. The list of improvements in this department is vast, is hard to quantify or list and is something that goes all the way from the expensive clamshell hood down to the higher quality in nuts and bolts.

--The engine is better.
--50% or 100 more hp
--100% or 145 more tq
--The numbers above are likely underrated, and the ability to tune the stock B48, and its potential for cheap power gains is a lot greater than the 86.

--ZF8 transmission
--Transmission can support a lot of torque and is much faster with shifting than the auto on the 86.

--Active exhaust.
--Standard larger brakes.
--Automatic engine start/stop.
--9x10'' vs 7x7' wide alloy wheels on 255x275 Michelin Pilot SS vs 215x215 Michelin Prius tires.

--Standard auto-folding heated mirrors with integrated turn signals that also auto tilt down when in reverse.
--Standard auto-leveling LED headlights (superior performance)
--Standard automatic high beams, which turns off when oncoming cars are detected.
--Standard 8 way manual seats with 4-way lumbar and 2-way bolster adjustment.
--Standard arm rest.
--Standard real carbon fiber interior trim.
--Standard lane departure warning with steering assist.
--Standard crash warning with pedestrian detection.
--Standard hill start assist.
--Standard launch control.
--Standard directional parking lights.
--Standard knee airbags.
--8.8'' MMI
--Standard dual zone climate control.
--Standard automatic air recirculation if the vehicle detects noxious gases in the atmosphere.
--Standard rain sensing windshield with automatic wipers.
--Standard auto-dimming rearview mirror.
--Standard "coming home device" and garage door opener, which I believe can turn on lights and disable the security system or other things.

--Optional 12 speaker JBL system/sub.
--Optional touchless MMI.
--Optional Toyota Supra Connect featuring Emergency Calling, Battery Guard, Remote-Control Lock/Ventilation, Real-Time Traffic Information, Map Updates,84 Concierge Service and Toyota Supra Online.
--Optional adaptive cruise control.
--Optional blind spot warning.
--Optional rear cross-traffic alert.
--Optional parking sensors with emergency braking function.
--Optional blind spot monitoring.

I have no idea if the car has other "quarks and features". Our Q5 has a bunch of features in the MMI such as a thing to set a warning if we creep over a certain speed slowly like if we have a lead foot, and there is an oil level checker, and a warning system for oil change intervals, and there is a thing to control the settings for how hard the AC blows when initially turned on, etc. Our Audi also has more sensors built into the car, so it warned my wife when the coolant reservoir was low--stuff like that.

I probably missed stuff, but this gives people a general idea.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by jflogerzi

The 2.0 supra is a terrible buy. Way better cars at that price point. 86 all day long over 2.0 Supra

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The 3.0 Supra is a terrible buy too; there's way faster cars at that price point!

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

--The engine is better.
--50% or 100 more hp
--100% or 145 more tq
--The numbers above are likely underrated, and the ability to tune the stock B48, and its potential for cheap power gains is a lot greater than the 86.

--ZF8 transmission
--Transmission can support a lot of torque and is much faster with shifting than the auto on the 86.

The funny part about this, is that the B48 is not underrated at all. It's powerband is actually quite... frustrating.

The transmission is actually the weakest link in the supra, quite literally. It can't even handle the torque of an otherwise stock ECU tuned supra.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

The funny part about this, is that the B48 is not underrated at all. It's powerband is actually quite... frustrating.

The transmission is actually the weakest link in the supra, quite literally. It can't even handle the torque of an otherwise stock ECU tuned supra.

Do I need to post dynos? Plenty of SAE dynos with wheel power/torque near or higher than quoted engine power/torque. Remember, the B48 comes in all different types of power configurations. Plus, these engines are designed for low end torque. Swap a larger turbo if you want more top end or higher peak horsepower. A tune, E85, some bolt ons, and it will have decent gains for cheap.

Uhh, people are running 9's with the ZF8. Are you saying it isn't reliable because that is different than saying it isn't capable?

I'm sure the 2.0 will get a bump in power (like the 3.0 Supra did) to the new B48 seen below, which is rated at 306hp and 332tq from the factory, but put down 295whp and 340wtq. This is inline with typical BMW dynos, where it puts to the wheels near or more than what is quoted at the engine. Honestly, I don't know what the B48's rods/componets in the 2.0 Supra is reliably able to handle, but I bet the torque is a lot more than what the 86 can handle, especially considering the torque is already double that of the 86 from the factory.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Do I need to post dynos? Plenty of SAE dynos with wheel power/torque near or higher than quoted engine power/torque. Remember, the B48 comes in all different types of power configurations. Plus, these engines are designed for low end torque. Swap a larger turbo if you want more top end or higher peak horsepower. A tune, E85, some bolt ons, and it will have decent gains for cheap.

Uhh, people are running 9's with the ZF8. Are you saying it isn't reliable because that is different than saying it isn't capable?

I'm sure the 2.0 will get a bump in power (like the 3.0 Supra did) to the new B48 seen below, which is rated at 306hp and 332tq from the factory, but put down 295whp and 340wtq. This is inline with typical BMW dynos, where it puts to the wheels near or more than what is quoted at the engine. Honestly, I don't know what the B48's rods/componets in the 2.0 Supra is reliably able to handle, but I bet the torque is a lot more than what the 86 can handle, especially considering the torque is already double that of the 86 from the factory.

You sound like quite the expert.

Perhaps you should dig a big deeper and become more expert.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

You sound like quite the expert.

Perhaps you should dig a big deeper and become more expert.

Seems like a lot of smoothing on that dyno. Seems odd for the torque to be the same as the horsepower, which is inconsistent with the advertised specs, nor is it consistent with any of their other B series motors. Typically torque is higher. Very odd. Same engine in the G20 330i (190kw) and other cars, which dynos far better, so odd.

Was that a press car? Was power limited intentionally?

I couldn't find much for anyone else dyno testing the 2.0 or doing their own 0-60, but the car is suppose to do 5.0 seconds 0-60, which makes more sense with quoted figures. I guess we will have to wait and see.

[QHawk]

I'm curious about something. You list what sound like virtues but include "Automatic engine start/stop." Really? Disabling that nuisance seems almost standard procedure on BMWs for anyone who knows that it can be disabled. (BMW veteran here.)