follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Speed By Design
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Engine Swaps

Engine Swaps Discussion of engine swaps.


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-09-2021, 11:06 AM   #127
redlined600
Senior Member
 
redlined600's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Drives: Fr-s
Location: MN
Posts: 731
Thanks: 122
Thanked 492 Times in 266 Posts
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I think the weight loss is being underplayed. If it's truly a loss of 140lbs, that's huge.
Roughly it would take my car from a P:W of 13ish(2600lbs/190~200hp) to 11ish(2450/220) Plus all that torque, the area under the curve is massive.

I likely won't do it due to the cost, but I wouldn't say I'm not looking for an engine.
__________________

Last edited by redlined600; 02-09-2021 at 12:59 PM.
redlined600 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to redlined600 For This Useful Post:
DarkSunrise (02-09-2021), wparsons (02-11-2021)
Old 02-09-2021, 01:28 PM   #128
Irace86.2.0
Senior Member
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 7,882
Thanks: 5,665
Thanked 5,802 Times in 3,297 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by redlined600 View Post
I think the weight loss is being underplayed. If it's truly a loss of 140lbs, that's huge.
Roughly it would take my car from a P:W of 13ish(2600lbs/190~200hp) to 11ish(2450/220) Plus all that torque, the area under the curve is massive.

I likely won't do it due to the cost, but I wouldn't say I'm not looking for an engine.
As discussed previously, the weight savings isn’t apples to apples. Add the same bolt-ons that are standard from this swap and the difference isn’t 140lbs, but it should be around 100 lbs.
__________________
My Build | K24 Turbo Swap | *K24T BRZ SOLD*
Irace86.2.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2021, 02:17 PM   #129
PulsarBeeerz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: JRSC BRZ
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 934
Thanks: 676
Thanked 738 Times in 396 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
As discussed previously, the weight savings isn’t apples to apples. Add the same bolt-ons that are standard from this swap and the difference isn’t 140lbs, but it should be around 100 lbs.
What bolt-ons make up for the 40lbs? The exhaust system didnt change. I still can't believe how shocked people were by the original weight. Even with light weight wheels you can easily gain 10-15lbs with wider tires.lol

I would think the Al driveshaft might save 10lbs and another 10 from the flywheel maybe?

Last edited by PulsarBeeerz; 02-09-2021 at 02:54 PM.
PulsarBeeerz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2021, 03:01 PM   #130
Irace86.2.0
Senior Member
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 7,882
Thanks: 5,665
Thanked 5,802 Times in 3,297 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz View Post
What bolt-ons make up for the 40lbs? The exhaust system didnt change. I still can't believe how shocked people were by the original weight. Even with light weight wheels you can easily gain 10-15lbs with wider tires.lol

I would think the Al driveshaft might save 10lbs and another 10 from the flywheel maybe?
Headers, driveshaft, flywheel, maybe the hydraulic TOB, etc. I don’t know if the K24’s alternator is sized equally or appropriately. If this was a JDM model then maybe some emissions components that could also be emitted on a FA20.
__________________
My Build | K24 Turbo Swap | *K24T BRZ SOLD*
Irace86.2.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2021, 05:21 PM   #131
Irace86.2.0
Senior Member
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 7,882
Thanks: 5,665
Thanked 5,802 Times in 3,297 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz View Post
Yesh..


Anyway here's a bone stock FRS vs their swapped BRZ. 159whp vs 229whp, still not 75 tho right? Edit: I take it back, check out the difference at 7200rpm on..


There is definitely plenty of incentive for anyone going from the FA20. There is more displacement and rpms and good response. The debate someone would need to have is whether to buy a gen two because the distance will close with the FA24 especially with E85 with the higher compression. I would be a driveshaft, light weight flywheel, header, e85, will be close. Sell and buy a new car or do the swap. I would dig the swap, but I’d want to the potential of the new motor.
__________________
My Build | K24 Turbo Swap | *K24T BRZ SOLD*
Irace86.2.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2021, 09:43 PM   #132
Ebush
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Drives: 2017 Hot Lava 86
Location: Ohio
Posts: 185
Thanks: 12
Thanked 133 Times in 74 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
Headers, driveshaft, flywheel, maybe the hydraulic TOB, etc. I don’t know if the K24’s alternator is sized equally or appropriately. If this was a JDM model then maybe some emissions components that could also be emitted on a FA20.
Both engine need an alternator so not sure why that’s brought up. Stock 86 doesn’t need a big heavy adapter plate for the trans, and also when using the adapter plate the flywheels are usually much thicker and fairly heavy. I’d bet that the clutch assembly with the adapter plate weighs more on the k24 swap than a stock 86.

The BRZ that was swapped was using the plastic intake manifold, so if swapping a 2017+ you’ll save even more weight. Also the engine that was pulled from the car had an aftermarket header, appears to be catless as well.
Ebush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2021, 12:22 AM   #133
Irace86.2.0
Senior Member
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 7,882
Thanks: 5,665
Thanked 5,802 Times in 3,297 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebush View Post
Both engine need an alternator so not sure why that’s brought up. Stock 86 doesn’t need a big heavy adapter plate for the trans, and also when using the adapter plate the flywheels are usually much thicker and fairly heavy. I’d bet that the clutch assembly with the adapter plate weighs more on the k24 swap than a stock 86.

The BRZ that was swapped was using the plastic intake manifold, so if swapping a 2017+ you’ll save even more weight. Also the engine that was pulled from the car had an aftermarket header, appears to be catless as well.
I feel like older engines had smaller alternators because they had to power less electronics like they didn’t have electric fans, electric power steering, electric coolant pumps, HIDs, etc, but the K24a2 isn’t super old. It was just a thought. I wasn’t saying it was for sure.

They are usually CNC aluminum, so they can be fairly light compared to a steel flywheel. This one for a 2JZ to CD009 is 15lbs or half the weight of the OEM flywheel, according to them:

https://www.maverick-motorsports.com...-adapter-plate

I’m sure a lightweight flywheel and hydraulic TOB, which omits the clutch fork, on the stock setup would be lighter, but they probably add to the weight reduction.

Again, the point is that an apples to apples comparison would be a FA20/24 with an aluminum flywheel, aluminum driveshaft, catless header, and whatever other nuances might be different other than the basic, assembled long-block. We know how light people have gotten this platform without a K24, so I guess we will have to see what the difference is with one.
__________________
My Build | K24 Turbo Swap | *K24T BRZ SOLD*
Irace86.2.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2021, 02:02 AM   #134
PulsarBeeerz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: JRSC BRZ
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 934
Thanks: 676
Thanked 738 Times in 396 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
FWIW Kpower's car weighed in at 2673lbs with the swap. When Pure Automotive did their swap they came in at 2612lbs with the S2K trans. ..So the weight isn't crazy light or unrealistic no matter how many apples one puts under the hood.lol

Best I could find on weights for both fully dressed engines is ~360lbs of apples for FA20 and ~285lbs of apples for K24A. Many apples here folks.

It should be noted that KPower mentions weight savings of the swap in: intake manifold, oil pan, oil pump, exhaust header and Ill add balance shaft removable as that is done in a Type-S oil pump upgrade. These have to happen so the swap can happen btw. All saving weight vs a bone stock OEM straight out of a TSX K24A2. Now subtract the 70-75lb of difference in dressed long blocks between both OEM standard engines. Probably nearing 100lbs already, yeah?

There isn't an apples to apples comparison because it became an orange in order to be installed.
PulsarBeeerz is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to PulsarBeeerz For This Useful Post:
Icecreamtruk (02-12-2021), Tomm (02-10-2021), venenon (02-10-2021)
Old 02-11-2021, 05:51 AM   #135
DIY
Senior Member
 
DIY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Drives: BRZ, WRX
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 291
Thanks: 105
Thanked 962 Times in 233 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
With regards to the weight of the adapter plate and flywheel they are not as heavy as you might think, my adapter kit from PMC Motorsport for example the flywheel is only 6.9kg, the adapter plate I did not weigh but its 20mm thick aluminium and feels like it weighs nothing when you pick it up.

__________________
Follow me on Instagram: @brzdiy

My Build Thread
DIY is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to DIY For This Useful Post:
DuMa (02-12-2021), Irace86.2.0 (02-14-2021), redlined600 (02-11-2021), Tomm (02-11-2021)
Old 02-11-2021, 11:54 AM   #136
toast
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: 14 BSP Edelbrock BRZ
Location: Lon Gisland
Posts: 806
Thanks: 113
Thanked 450 Times in 256 Posts
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Holy hell that is a gorgeous piece of machining.
toast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2021, 04:35 PM   #137
WolfpackS2k
Senior Member
 
WolfpackS2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Drives: '12 C63 P31, '23 GRC
Location: NC
Posts: 3,199
Thanks: 2,934
Thanked 2,072 Times in 1,185 Posts
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSunrise View Post
I've never seen a 13-16 BRZ weigh in above 2800 lbs unless it was an automatic. Actually I've never seen a 2017+ that heavy either. Most bone stock FRS's and even BRZ's I've seen come in under 2750. If you believe their numbers, that's fine, I just think it's a little odd.

Also worth is definitely relative/subjective, no doubt about that! But here's the thing, I don't think I'm alone in my perspective. It's probably going to be $7-10k for the swap (just guessing, pricing hasn't been released yet) to gain maybe 20-30 whp over a FBO E85 FA20. Not saying that's not a significant bump in power, but compared to the cost and issues that come with swaps, it's a tough sell unless you're talking about a blown FA20 situation. Again just my opinion.

On their FB page, they're pushing this swap pretty hard and I get that from a business perspective. But there's no point making comparisons that aren't apples-to-apples. If they're talking about a FBO K20/24 on E85 making 240 whp, then compare that to a FBO FA20 on E85 making 210 whp and you get a 30 whp difference. Or if they're talking about bone stock K24a2 making 170-180 whp, then compare that to a bone stock FA20 making 165-175 whp for a 5 whp difference.
Some people won't put up with inconvenience, and horrible mpg, of ethanol when looking for power. At least I won't. Not a chance, ever. haha. So a swap like this is quite meaningful/notable to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackhawkdown View Post
Im a rsx type s owner. The k20 (type s) head flows better than k24. Most k20 and k24 owners do a hybrid build. A k20 head with the k24 block for bigger displacement and torque with a 8k-9k rpm rev limit. Most k20/24 builds can push 350hp all motor reliably.
What's your "reliably" definition? To me it means track days without worrying if you're engine's gonna eat itself.
__________________
Current: 2023 GRC Circuit Edition, 2012 C63 AMG P31
Past: (2) 2000 MR2 Spyder, 2017 GTI Sport, 2006 Porsche Cayman S, Supercharged 2013 BRZ-L, 2007 Honda S2000, 1992 Integra GS-R
WolfpackS2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2021, 12:14 PM   #138
DarkSunrise
Senior Member
 
DarkSunrise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Drives: 22 BRZ (Previously 13 FR-S)
Location: USA
Posts: 5,794
Thanks: 2,164
Thanked 4,242 Times in 2,220 Posts
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k View Post
Some people won't put up with inconvenience, and horrible mpg, of ethanol when looking for power. At least I won't. Not a chance, ever. haha. So a swap like this is quite meaningful/notable to me.
Yep I think that's a reasonable position. I said this elsewhere on the thread, but everyone's interest in E85 results will depend on availability where they live. I've got an E85 station 2 minutes from my house and dozens in my area, so obviously very relevant to me. I'm not a fan of catless exhausts, so catless dyno comparisons matter less to me. It's like you said, everyone's situation is different. The FA20 has many drawbacks, but one thing I like is its ability to make 200 whp on E85 without needing to touch the exhaust.
__________________
"Never run out of real estate, traction, and ideas at the same time."

2022 BRZ Build
2013 FR-S Build
DarkSunrise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2021, 02:52 PM   #139
Goingnowherefast
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Drives: AP2 S2000, 91 Miata 1.8L Rotrex 5MT
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 465
Thanks: 275
Thanked 299 Times in 187 Posts
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k View Post
Some people won't put up with inconvenience, and horrible mpg, of ethanol when looking for power. At least I won't. Not a chance, ever. haha. So a swap like this is quite meaningful/notable to me.
I guess it might just matter what part of the country you're at. Like in the midwest, you can find E85 at every other gas station. If you have flex fuel, it's literally never cost me an inconvenience or even a second of extra thought in my 2 years of running full E85. You break even when compared to 93 octane too.
__________________
2022 Hyundai Elantra N 6MT SCCA TT S3//Will be back in an 86 eventually
Goingnowherefast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2021, 01:50 PM   #140
WolfpackS2k
Senior Member
 
WolfpackS2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Drives: '12 C63 P31, '23 GRC
Location: NC
Posts: 3,199
Thanks: 2,934
Thanked 2,072 Times in 1,185 Posts
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
^very true on some points. But you're also filling up your tank with a far less energy dense fuel. So you're filling up a lot more often.

And every track in the SE would require me to haul in all my own E85 to use...fun.
__________________
Current: 2023 GRC Circuit Edition, 2012 C63 AMG P31
Past: (2) 2000 MR2 Spyder, 2017 GTI Sport, 2006 Porsche Cayman S, Supercharged 2013 BRZ-L, 2007 Honda S2000, 1992 Integra GS-R
WolfpackS2k is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rigid Industries SR-Series Pro Light Bar on my BRZ Stang70Fastback Cosmetic Modification (Interior/Exterior/Lighting) 3 12-29-2019 03:13 PM
Airlift from industries finest J_Nasty Member's Car Journals 0 02-04-2017 01:59 PM
Carbox Industries - Introduction CarBox CANADIAN Sales 5 04-22-2014 01:22 PM
86 industries Duthebarber Northern California 70 03-28-2014 04:10 PM
Another 86 Industries another bad experience sikest User/Vendor/Sponsor Reviews, Feedback, Comments 3 03-13-2014 01:00 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:09 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.