follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Delicious Tuning
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing

Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing Relating to suspension, chassis, and brakes. Sponsored by 949 Racing.


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-26-2021, 01:34 PM   #57
NoHaveMSG
Senior Member
 
NoHaveMSG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: Crapcan
Location: Oregon
Posts: 11,118
Thanks: 18,090
Thanked 16,253 Times in 7,346 Posts
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramaroon View Post
Would be interesting but I argue that we've already confirmed that it's snake oil if we actually needed a strain gauge to measure any difference. I'd start by jacking up one wheel or even opposite corners to induce some crazy longitudinal torsion. If the doors open and close ok, snake oil confirmed.

We should still do the arduino project just for the experience. I've installed strain gauges and done all manner of data acquisition but I've never played with an arduino or raspberry device. Would welcome some peer pressure to get me motivated.
That is a good point

I have an Arduino Uno sitting on my desk, been looking for something to do with it.
__________________
"Experience is the hardest kind of teacher. It gives you the test first and the lesson afterward." -Oscar Wilde.
NoHaveMSG is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to NoHaveMSG For This Useful Post:
Ultramaroon (01-26-2021)
Old 01-26-2021, 02:01 PM   #58
PulsarBeeerz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: JRSC BRZ
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 934
Thanks: 676
Thanked 738 Times in 396 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
While we are bench racing on other peoples qualitative experiences might as well bust out the tri-axial accelerometer.
PulsarBeeerz is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to PulsarBeeerz For This Useful Post:
NoHaveMSG (01-26-2021), therealstoly (01-26-2021)
Old 01-26-2021, 02:15 PM   #59
Ultramaroon
義理チョコ
 
Ultramaroon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Drives: a 13 e8h frs
Location: vantucky, wa
Posts: 31,825
Thanks: 52,063
Thanked 36,469 Times in 18,894 Posts
Mentioned: 1106 Post(s)
Tagged: 9 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG View Post
I have an Arduino Uno sitting on my desk, been looking for something to do with it.
Pre- and post-oil pump pressures!
__________________
Ultramaroon is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Ultramaroon For This Useful Post:
NoHaveMSG (01-26-2021)
Old 01-26-2021, 02:53 PM   #60
NoHaveMSG
Senior Member
 
NoHaveMSG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: Crapcan
Location: Oregon
Posts: 11,118
Thanks: 18,090
Thanked 16,253 Times in 7,346 Posts
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramaroon View Post
Pre- and post-oil pump pressures!
I have a new toy for that already and the software to go with it. I just need to get another pressure gauge. And module to pickup an RPM signal. And to drill and tap my other timing cover for the sending units.
__________________
"Experience is the hardest kind of teacher. It gives you the test first and the lesson afterward." -Oscar Wilde.
NoHaveMSG is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to NoHaveMSG For This Useful Post:
Ultramaroon (01-26-2021)
Old 01-26-2021, 03:19 PM   #61
therealstoly
Senior Member
 
therealstoly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Drives: 2020 BRZ Limited
Location: Reno
Posts: 112
Thanks: 214
Thanked 222 Times in 75 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by grumpysnapper View Post
...but is it possible that you are being a little too generous in interpreting their perceived effects?
Absolutely. You could've said probable instead of possible and I'd not have a sound logical argument to respond with. I'm human and as I said in the first post, I've tried to be as fair as I can be. Tone is nearly impossible to decipher on forums so if I may...

The search function wonk we have right now makes it impossible to go back and double-check the actual numbers so bear with me. As I recall, there are 55 pages of threads if you do an advanced search for Cusco as a keyword in the title. 17 pages with the same search just in the suspension section of the forum. That's a lot of threads and they include everything from selling a Cusco radiator cap to coilover installation questions and everything in-between.

I'm a Cusco fan and have been for a long time across different platforms. And they also have one of the most, if not the most, comprehensive catalog of bracing for this platorm. This started because after reading through 17 pages of threads most of them look a lot like this...

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143526

...and it is possible that mathematically speaking, bracing offers zero benefit. But it's not probable that every bit of bracing is entirely worthless. So I decided that with very little to do during a pandemic and shelter-in-place orders I'd experiment with adding bracing. I'd always wanted to take a brand new car and do the modifications with as few miles as possible. I think we can both agree that swapping out bushings with 75,000 miles in a salty/harsh/race environment is going to come with raving reviews, even if the replacement bushings are OEM.

This is just one thread in a sea of threads that has not devolved into a total shitshow. Some good feedback, suggestions, points-of-view, etc. from people that have bracing, bushings, a mix, or are looking for opinions on them. Some have installed the same braces and had similar results and some didn't. Some have bushings instead and some have bushings in conjunction with. All things considered, if I were brand new to this platform and forum and did a search, this has turned into a pretty good variety pack of thoughts/theories/methodologies. From people that actually have the items being discussed.

I know you're not the biggest fan of bracing and I wish you were local. I've offered my car up to anyone that wants to drive it as an instant comparison. My descriptors probably make a lot more sense too if you are near the Santa Cruz Mountains and have taken every road that leads to Alice's. That insane 45 degree inclined hairpin on Bear Creek Road that feels like it was paved using tank tracks its so washboarded is hard to describe in a way that makes sense to anyone that hasn't experienced it. Anyone that has taken that road at a good clip knows the ass of the car is going to ask stability control for a little assistance and getting power to transfer from the tires to the pavement is going to be the opposite of fun. Stating that the rear side member braces, as an example, eliminate most of the vehicular issues in that corner can be interpreted as total nonsense/placebo from afar and at the same time be provable at a local level.
therealstoly is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to therealstoly For This Useful Post:
Cephas (01-26-2021), DylanJZA (07-26-2022), NLSP (01-27-2021), Ultramaroon (01-27-2021)
Old 01-27-2021, 03:24 AM   #62
Thefalls
Senior Member
 
Thefalls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Drives: Corolla GT
Location: Sunny place.
Posts: 208
Thanks: 371
Thanked 117 Times in 89 Posts
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
As you rightly pointed out, not everyone is a fan of bracing. But once you have tried it and if you feel or perceive the effects then you become a fan.

Thats my case. I have tried bracing of all kinds in my previous car, Corolla Axio GT ( JDM ) and I found them to work very well. Some of their effects you perceive more and some less.

For example, the front strut brace made the car understeer and once I tried driving without it, just for fun, and the car rotated well for a FWD. Ever since its place was under the bed.LOL

The best brace that has always put a smile on my face is the four point front member brace. In any car that i used it, the steering felt more precise and slightly heavier. " I prefer a heavy steering than a light one".

The thing is, not everyone is so tactile enough to perceive the effects. And that's perfectly normal, as we are all different. Sometimes it also helps to drive a stock car for a while and when you modify one thing at a time then you are able to discern the differences.

As H. Naruse'san always said, " Spend sometime under the car without doing anything and everything will be clear to you".
Thefalls is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Thefalls For This Useful Post:
Cephas (01-27-2021), Jdmjunkie (01-27-2021), NLSP (01-27-2021), PBR (10-30-2023), therealstoly (01-27-2021)
Old 01-27-2021, 11:11 AM   #63
NoHaveMSG
Senior Member
 
NoHaveMSG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: Crapcan
Location: Oregon
Posts: 11,118
Thanks: 18,090
Thanked 16,253 Times in 7,346 Posts
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz View Post
While we are bench racing on other peoples qualitative experiences might as well bust out the tri-axial accelerometer.
The problem with qualitative experience is that my qualitative experience will differ from yours, and the next guys, and the next. I prefer data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thefalls View Post
As you rightly pointed out, not everyone is a fan of bracing. But once you have tried it and if you feel or perceive the effects then you become a fan.
The real question is do those perceived benefits actually make a difference in performance ? I quite like the steering rack lock downs on the twin, but do they improve the performance of car that translates to a faster lap time? Or my ability to drive it quicker? Not one bit. There is nothing wrong with adding something that improves your enjoyment in driving your car, but this doesn't always come with an actual gain in performance but there seems to be this belief that feels better=more performance when a lot of times I don't belief that is the actual case.
__________________
"Experience is the hardest kind of teacher. It gives you the test first and the lesson afterward." -Oscar Wilde.
NoHaveMSG is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to NoHaveMSG For This Useful Post:
grumpysnapper (01-27-2021), Thefalls (01-27-2021)
Old 01-27-2021, 02:34 PM   #64
NLSP
Senior Member
 
NLSP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Drives: 2014 Ultramarine FR-S
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 517
Thanks: 414
Thanked 543 Times in 244 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG View Post
The real question is do those perceived benefits actually make a difference in performance ? I quite like the steering rack lock downs on the twin, but do they improve the performance of car that translates to a faster lap time? Or my ability to drive it quicker? Not one bit. There is nothing wrong with adding something that improves your enjoyment in driving your car, but this doesn't always come with an actual gain in performance but there seems to be this belief that feels better=more performance when a lot of times I don't belief that is the actual case.
It doesn't appear that any of us that have these chassis reinforcement parts claimed that they improve lap times. We (at least I) have only indicated that they improve feel/behavior and enjoyment of the car.

I've said this in another thead: I can admit and agree that these parts make little or no difference in lap times, but it does improve feel, confidence and fun if you care more about the driving experience rather than measurable numbers (e.g. if you don't track and just do canyon runs). I would put these parts in the same "feel-mod" realm as brake master cylinder braces, for example. They don't help you stop faster, but it certainly feels more solid and confidence-inspiring.
NLSP is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to NLSP For This Useful Post:
Jdmjunkie (01-27-2021), Thefalls (01-27-2021), therealstoly (01-27-2021)
Old 01-27-2021, 03:00 PM   #65
Thefalls
Senior Member
 
Thefalls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Drives: Corolla GT
Location: Sunny place.
Posts: 208
Thanks: 371
Thanked 117 Times in 89 Posts
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
I haven't done bracing yet in my car but from previous experience i can relate to more confidence when driving spiritedly.

My understanding is that when you feel/perceive the car better then it helps you push harder. The chassis 'talks' to you in a certain way and helping you find the limits more easily. The stock car is more muffled in certain areas and rightly so since it has to appeal to the masses. But some mods, be it uprated bushings, inserts or braces, help bring forward some type of precision where you feel more confident.
More confidence = better lap times.

But who doesn't love precision in a nicely modded car?

Im also relieved to hear that others too have also heard the slight creaks in the B pillars and the doors when going on rough tarmacs. Thought i was being paranoid. LOL!
Will eventually do the TRD door stabilizer.
Thefalls is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Thefalls For This Useful Post:
NLSP (01-27-2021), therealstoly (01-27-2021)
Old 01-27-2021, 03:48 PM   #66
NoHaveMSG
Senior Member
 
NoHaveMSG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: Crapcan
Location: Oregon
Posts: 11,118
Thanks: 18,090
Thanked 16,253 Times in 7,346 Posts
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by NLSP View Post
It doesn't appear that any of us that have these chassis reinforcement parts claimed that they improve lap times. We (at least I) have only indicated that they improve feel/behavior and enjoyment of the car.

I've said this in another thead: I can admit and agree that these parts make little or no difference in lap times, but it does improve feel, confidence and fun if you care more about the driving experience rather than measurable numbers (e.g. if you don't track and just do canyon runs). I would put these parts in the same "feel-mod" realm as brake master cylinder braces, for example. They don't help you stop faster, but it certainly feels more solid and confidence-inspiring.
I just used lap times in my example, not saying anyone or everyone was claiming this. Most of the claims are about how X part improved handling, but no further explanation or quantitive data. Not solely referring to this thread either. My comment goes back to the perceived thought that improved feel = improved performance, when really improved feel just equals...improved feel. There is absolutely no problem with that, I just kind of roll my eyes at comments that insinuate an improvement in performance.
__________________
"Experience is the hardest kind of teacher. It gives you the test first and the lesson afterward." -Oscar Wilde.
NoHaveMSG is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to NoHaveMSG For This Useful Post:
Ultramaroon (05-07-2021)
Old 01-27-2021, 09:27 PM   #67
Cephas
Senior Member
 
Cephas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Drives: 2017 Toyota 86 (860 SE)
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 328
Thanks: 537
Thanked 434 Times in 167 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
At the end of the day though, for 99.9% of us, isn't it true that performance=feel? If you aren't getting paid to drive the car, lap times are just as irrelevant as anything else. Some people enjoy them as a measure, while others enjoy how the car behaves in a set of s-curves on their daily commute. I think the feeling the car brings you is the performance, to a great extent.

From another angle, performance is also as specific to the driver and the conditions, regardless of whether we're talking about feel or a lap time. A car could be brilliant on one track and hot trash on another with the same set of mods, and the same applies to feel on one set of streets vs another.

All that to say, I don't have a problem with semi-scientific subjective analyses, because if you dig deep enough, that's all we really have in any case.
Cephas is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Cephas For This Useful Post:
NLSP (01-27-2021), NoHaveMSG (01-28-2021), Thefalls (01-28-2021), therealstoly (01-27-2021), Ultramaroon (05-07-2021)
Old 01-27-2021, 09:57 PM   #68
NLSP
Senior Member
 
NLSP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Drives: 2014 Ultramarine FR-S
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 517
Thanks: 414
Thanked 543 Times in 244 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG View Post
I just used lap times in my example, not saying anyone or everyone was claiming this. Most of the claims are about how X part improved handling, but no further explanation or quantitive data. Not solely referring to this thread either. My comment goes back to the perceived thought that improved feel = improved performance, when really improved feel just equals...improved feel. There is absolutely no problem with that, I just kind of roll my eyes at comments that insinuate an improvement in performance.
Fair enough, I understand where you're coming from. It seems everyone has a different use/interpretation of words when they're trying to describe the difference with these parts.

For example, it sounds like "improved performance" for you means going quicker or reduced lap times. Whereas for someone else, "improved performance" with stiffer engine mounts for example, could just be their way of describing less engine pitch/bucking; not necessarily saying that you'll accelerate faster.

Or "improved handling" with a strut/chassis brace was their way of describing sharper turn-in or less jittery behavior over road imperfections, not necessarily saying you can take corners at a higher speed and/or at higher G's.

I'm no engineer, but I imagine these kinds of differences would be complex and probably expensive to measure if it's even possible. That may be some reasons for the lack of measurable or quantitative data.

Even some of the "feel" is kinda hard to scientifically describe. It's like the car in stock form feels put together with rubber bands and duct tape, whereas adding the braces and stiffer mounts/bushings makes it feel more like a welded solid piece. Exaggerated example, but hopefully it gets the point across.
NLSP is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to NLSP For This Useful Post:
NoHaveMSG (01-27-2021), Thefalls (01-28-2021), therealstoly (01-27-2021)
Old 05-06-2021, 02:30 PM   #69
Thefalls
Senior Member
 
Thefalls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Drives: Corolla GT
Location: Sunny place.
Posts: 208
Thanks: 371
Thanked 117 Times in 89 Posts
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Is there anyone who has the under panels with braces ?

Would like to know if there are any interferences.

Thanks.
Thefalls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2021, 02:51 PM   #70
therealstoly
Senior Member
 
therealstoly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Drives: 2020 BRZ Limited
Location: Reno
Posts: 112
Thanks: 214
Thanked 222 Times in 75 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
No issues with OEM plastic panels, Verus diffuser, tranny tunnel cover, and suspension/diff covers in conjunction with the bracing.
therealstoly is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to therealstoly For This Useful Post:
Capt Spaulding (05-06-2021), DylanJZA (07-26-2022), jflogerzi (05-23-2021), Thefalls (05-06-2021), Ultramaroon (05-07-2021)
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
TB Performance Bracing Review Zach3794 Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing 0 11-11-2013 09:23 PM
Cusco: Toyota 86 / Subaru BRZ Suspension & Bracing !! Speed Element Brakes, Suspension, Chassis 42 06-14-2013 02:20 PM
CUSCO Chassis Bracing & Suspension IN STOCK Free Shipping LOWEST PRICES on FT86Club!! CygnusPerformance.com Brakes, Suspension, Chassis 27 05-16-2013 07:06 AM
Cusco And Beatrush - The All Japan Strut Bracing Thread! RallySport Direct Brakes, Suspension, Chassis 1 02-12-2013 05:47 PM
TB Performance Chasis Bracing Review xclusive_brett Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing 12 02-05-2013 10:46 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:12 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.