New ICE Vehicles Banned in California by 2035

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Spuds

Why don't you just rent a fast car when you don't just need to commute from point a to point b in traffic? Would be much more cost effective than owning and operating one yourself, and having to fix it when the engine goes

Also, it definitely depends on where you live how much trucks get used for truck things. I know of many truck owners that tow stuff or haul stuff multiple times a month. They are pretty useful in winter too.

I drive it like I stole it all the time. I use my sporty cars daily. That, and building cars is my hobby. A sporty car accelerates faster. It handles better just taking turns at lower speeds. It is all about the feel every moment. I don’t think a truck feels much different than an SUV. A truck is a utility vehicle. It is like owning a Swiss Army knife, but only ever using the standard blade.

A truck can be useful. The survey demonstrates that they aren’t used for their utility that often or at all. The vast majority of truck owners may never need a truck or is just using it for commuting. This goes to the argument of the feasibility that EVs will replace utility vehicles like trucks that tow. Apparently, this just might not be a problem. Perhaps people will just rent that Ford F250 King Ranch edition when they need to haul once a year, and then they drive an EV the rest of the year.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Maybe we need to revive the El Camino.

i was fully on board for the hyundai santa cruz. and then they took a 4-door suv, hacked off the roof, and called it macaroni...

i do keep looking at kei trucks though... major detractors there is RHD, and paying $15-30k for a 25+y/o vehicle, of which all parts need to be special ordered from another country, if they're even available at all anymore because it's 25 years old...

[WildCard600]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Well I would imagine most people in sporty cars use the handling and performance every day. They may not track the car, but they experience the improved acceleration and handling daily. I’m sure most minivan owners are taking advantage of the convenience of a minivan when driving their kids around daily. Etc. I get what you are trying to say, but I don’t think it is equally as bad.

Depends on where you live. I drive my jeep much more often than my cars. The roads around here are such that I have to carefully choose my route if driving the eight six or trans am. I don't like beating them up over potholes and risking bending a rim with the low profile tires.

I think you reasoning definitely applies to most metro or suburban areas, but there's a still a lot of rural areas where a truck/SUV or even good ground clearance AWD CUV is more of a need than a luxury.

[WildCard600]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I drive it like I stole it all the time. I use my sporty cars daily. That, and building cars is my hobby. A sporty car accelerates faster. It handles better just taking turns at lower speeds. It is all about the feel every moment. I don’t think a truck feels much different than an SUV. A truck is a utility vehicle. It is like owning a Swiss Army knife, but only ever using the standard blade.

A truck can be useful. The survey demonstrates that they aren’t used for their utility that often or at all. The vast majority of truck owners may never need a truck or is just using it for commuting. This goes to the argument of the feasibility that EVs will replace utility vehicles like trucks that tow. Apparently, this just might not be a problem. Perhaps people will just rent that Ford F250 King Ranch edition when they need to haul once a year, and then they drive an EV the rest of the year.

I would like to see the demographics of the people who took that survey.

I can't drive to the post office and back without seeing 15 trucks with equipment in the bed or pulling a trailer behind it. Granted this is a pretty rural area but even when I'm around one of the larger metros seeing trucks being used as trucks is a very common occurrence.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Well I would imagine most people in sporty cars use the handling and performance every day. They may not track the car, but they experience the improved acceleration and handling daily. I’m sure most minivan owners are taking advantage of the convenience of a minivan when driving their kids around daily. Etc. I get what you are trying to say, but I don’t think it is equally as bad.

Nope.
"Most" drive their sporty cars as if they were a base sedan. It is guys that hang out on forums that use the handling and performance not the majority of the owners.
Most high HP luxury car users never use that HP. I offended some people with that comment just last week.
Most pickup drivers never pickup anything. A few weeks ago I posted a picture of 18 trucks in my work lot. A grand total of 3 of those trucks have ever had anything beyond cases of beer in the box.
Most minivan drivers travel by themselves and it is rare when there are 7 passengers.
Most Jeep drivers will never ever ever leave the road with their big tires and rock climbing skid plates.
Most Muscle cars drivers will never hit a dragstrip.
Most Harley riders will never deal in meth or manage strippers.

All in all the only vehicles where most drivers use it as designed are your cheap ass econobox appliance cars that were intended to get one or two people from point A to point B as easily and cheaply as possible. Every other specialized vehicle will either be used as designed by a small minority or never see it's "intended" purpose. Remember that 95% of the driving population just don't like driving even though they may have a preference in a certain type of vehicle. We are the weirdos not them!

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

That, and building cars is my hobby.

80% of the owners of the trucks in the parking lot here would tell you the same thing, their truck is their hobby or it enables their hobby. Like others have said, it's a little geographically, or demographically, dependent.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

80% of the owners of the trucks in the parking lot here would tell you the same thing, their truck is their hobby or it enables their hobby. Like others have said, it's a little geographically, or demographically, dependent.

It is funny that since I work in a small town many of our guys are also part time farmers. They all have working trucks but don't drive them everyday and have nice cars or SUVs that they drive to work here.

The people that drive their trucks all the time are the ones we see in the parking lot here. Of those very, very few ever haul anything.

Here is a great sample from a few minutes ago. This is almost half a million dollars in top trim pickups all in a row. I asked each of the owners what they have hauled and every one of them has never had anything in the box that could not have gone in the trunk of my 86. In each case the truck itself is their hobby and three out of the four are modified as much as most cars on this forum.

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by WildCard600

I would like to see the demographics of the people who took that survey.

I can't drive to the post office and back without seeing 15 trucks with equipment in the bed or pulling a trailer behind it. Granted this is a pretty rural area but even when I'm around one of the larger metros seeing trucks being used as trucks is a very common occurrence.

Same here. Many seem to use them to bring trash/recycling/scrap to appropriate collection locations every couple of weeks, I see many watercraft towed (I live near a launch), work trucks, farm equipment, etc. Do trucks make a ton of sense in a city, probably not, but in suburban and rural environments they seem to get used quite a bit

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Spuds

Same here. Many seem to use them to bring trash/recycling/scrap to appropriate collection locations every couple of weeks, I see many watercraft towed (I live near a launch), work trucks, farm equipment, etc. Do trucks make a ton of sense in a city, probably not, but in suburban and rural environments they seem to get used quite a bit

The thing is that you are in a location where you see the working trucks. I bet for every one of them there are 20 that are just used as car. The problem is that those ones are harder to identify since of course they could be used for hauling even if they never are.

[Dadhawk]

Speaking of trucks, on the Toyota live event today they said that 77% of their overall saies are trucks and SUVs. That is much higher than I expected from a company that still sells "low roof" models which is the new way of saying coupes and sedans.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Speaking of trucks, on the Toyota live event today they said that 77% of their overall saies are trucks and SUVs. That is much higher than I expected from a company that still sells "low roof" models which is the new way of saying coupes and sedans.

That figure knocks the crap out of so many people's theory that the only reason that people buy trucks and SUVs is because that is all that the companies offer. When toyota buyers have such a huge choice and the percentage is still that high it clearly shows who is picking what sells.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by WildCard600

I would like to see the demographics of the people who took that survey.

I can't drive to the post office and back without seeing 15 trucks with equipment in the bed or pulling a trailer behind it. Granted this is a pretty rural area but even when I'm around one of the larger metros seeing trucks being used as trucks is a very common occurrence.

From the article:

Americans are batshit crazy for pickup trucks. Last year, in a new vehicle market that was basically flat, full-size truck sales grew to nearly 2.5 million units. If you include so-called mid-size trucks—many of which are now longer than the full-size trucks of just five years ago and sales of which increased 15% in 2018—that number rises to nearly three million. That’s more than one out of every six new vehicles sold in 2018. And this doesn’t even take into account *light* truck- or car-based SUVs. Taken all together, these vehicles now make up seven out of ten American vehicle sales.

Most likely it was a randomized survey. The Drive article says it was a survey of:

Alexander Edwards president of automotive research and consulting firm Strategic Vision, which conducts an in-depth, annual, 250,000-person, psychographic new vehicle owner’s survey.”

https://www.strategicvision.com/

Led by President Alexander Edwards, Strategic Vision is a research-based consultancy that helps companies understand human behavior and decision-making patterns. We understand how and why people make decisions in any market or field. With over thirty years of experience and the best methodology in the industry, we help our clients to truly know their current and potential customers. Armed with the knowledge of why their target audience makes decisions, our clients are able to tailor their products and messaging accordingly, and achieve success in the endeavors they choose to pursue.

The firm has a respected position in the automotive market with over twenty years of New Vehicle Experience Study (NVES) data. Strategic Vision has developed the most comprehensive, integrated and actionable data-set on new vehicle owners available in the auto industry.

Strategic Vision is commonly cited as an auto industry expert in national press and publications such as the Wall Street Journal, USA Today, the Detroit News, and the Washington Times.

These guys get paid to provide accurate information that they can sell to manufacturers, so manufacturers better know the minds of their buyers. This likely isn’t some social media survey from Facebook skewed towards metropolitan areas.

If the survey reveals that towing isn’t important, but size is important for looks or road presence then trucks could get bigger without gaining towing capacity, for example. Engines could be smaller and the bodies could stay lighter, being just bigger shells. This would be good to know.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Nope.
"Most" drive their sporty cars as if they were a base sedan. It is guys that hang out on forums that use the handling and performance not the majority of the owners.
Most high HP luxury car users never use that HP. I offended some people with that comment just last week.
Most pickup drivers never pickup anything. A few weeks ago I posted a picture of 18 trucks in my work lot. A grand total of 3 of those trucks have ever had anything beyond cases of beer in the box.
Most minivan drivers travel by themselves and it is rare when there are 7 passengers.
Most Jeep drivers will never ever ever leave the road with their big tires and rock climbing skid plates.
Most Muscle cars drivers will never hit a dragstrip.
Most Harley riders will never deal in meth or manage strippers.

All in all the only vehicles where most drivers use it as designed are your cheap ass econobox appliance cars that were intended to get one or two people from point A to point B as easily and cheaply as possible. Every other specialized vehicle will either be used as designed by a small minority or never see it's "intended" purpose. Remember that 95% of the driving population just don't like driving even though they may have a preference in a certain type of vehicle. We are the weirdos not them!

You are saying most people who opted to pay more for the more powerful engine or for a sporty car that can often be less practical is doing so with no intention of using that power or taking a corner faster than your average vehicle, or enjoys the improvements to the steering or lack of body roll or stability? The Civic SI only has a badge on it; looks wise, it barely changes. The CTR is only available in manual transmission; this is counter to the entire market. The Golf R only really has the R badge; it doesn’t look much different. The same could be said for higher variants of most economy sedans that have been turned sporty like M cars or the Model 3 Performance or a Charger Redeye. Miata owners are 100% buying the car for the sporty feel and for the daily experience of driving it. I haven’t even mentioned exotic sports cars from Corvettes to Ferraris. Have you been in these vehicles? The second you get in it is an experience. A person needs only drive it around to experience the difference. They don’t need to go to the track to enjoy the difference of a sporty car. Very few owners of sporty cars drive them so conservatively like a grandma that they experiences would be nullified. If they did then they would have paid thousands more for what—the badge?

A truck feels like a SUV. The bed provides no visceral change in the experience. The four wheel drive provides no change in the experience. The towing ability provides no change in the experience. The only variables that are immediately obvious in a 2500 truck is its mass and dimensions and the large turbo diesel engine, which sounds different than a large V8 or V6 in smaller models.

Almost no one buys a minivan for themselves like people do SUVs/CUVs. If they do then they either got a hell of a deal they couldn’t pass up from someone they know, or they are in a rock band and need an easy loader. Most minivan sales go to families and as taxis/airport shuttles. These are families of young children looking for an easy loader for child seats and for easy entry for children, that is also easy to clean and easy to maneuver inside. They often feature in-vehicle vacuums and entertainment like rear seat displays and connectivity.

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Speaking of trucks, on the Toyota live event today they said that 77% of their overall saies are trucks and SUVs. That is much higher than I expected from a company that still sells "low roof" models which is the new way of saying coupes and sedans.

Then again, sometimes I just don't get people...