What would your ultimate OEM FR-S/BRZ be?

[White Shadow]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

You're right, I've prob guestimate em too low. Spec like that is prob hitting north of $40k. Who knows, specially those spec will screw w Lexus sales... so maybe price tag lil under IS-F.

...right, I guess, you missed the hiccup of drop rpm & cricket noise.

I'm not anti against w your idea... as long as you can fork over those price tag. :happy0180: So when 86 GRMN release w ridiculous price tag, I'll be expect you to commenting "Yes! Why they're not selling it over here."

North of $40? Nah....if you think about it, the suspension would add very little (if anything) to the cost of building the car. Different spec springs and maybe some revised suspension tuning at most. The wheels & tires would b a little more expensive since they are larger and geared more toward high performance. The only thing in my list that could add significant cost is the factory turbocharger. I'm quite sure that a few grand would be a realistic price tag on top of the price of the car.

As for the rev dip and cricket noises, my post wasn't intended to address issues, it was just about what we'd all like to see in these cars from the factory. Issues are another story altogether.

BTW, I don't think an FR-S equipped with my list (small turbo, lower ride height, and bigger wheels & tires) would be a threat to an IS-F in price or performance.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by White Shadow

North of $40? Nah....if you think about it, the suspension would add very little (if anything) to the cost of building the car. Different spec springs and maybe some revised suspension tuning at most. The wheels & tires would b a little more expensive since they are larger and geared more toward high performance. The only thing in my list that could add significant cost is the factory turbocharger. I'm quite sure that a few grand would be a realistic price tag on top of the price of the car.

As for the rev dip and cricket noises, my post wasn't intended to address issues, it was just about what we'd all like to see in these cars from the factory. Issues are another story altogether.

BTW, I don't think an FR-S equipped with my list (small turbo, lower ride height, and bigger wheels & tires) would be a threat to an IS-F in price or performance.

Ha... even small turbo, lower ride & bigger tires will totally screwing up EVERYTHING on this car. The design of the suspension and weight and specially lowering it! How much strut work gotta go through dips & bumps. Can struts absolve all those dips & bumps or put a stress on the driver? Maybe into the chassis? Which recalibrate the struts and spring setup... which means all new struts & springs. Small turbo? They need to re-figure out the comp ratio, which require new piston, rods, injectors, and all other internal stuff. Not only that, oil pan, water & oil pump, redesign the under the hood to make a space for "small" turbo. How about ECU? How much research & programing need to get that turbo working properly and efficiently? What happen to the F&R weight ratio? stronger/firmer engine amount? Is transmission can handle the power? How about clutch? How about flywheels? Does it need to be replaced w stronger ones? How about wheel hub bearing? How about wheels? Gonna be using TRD 18's? What tires? How much grip? More traction equal to more work for braking. Stock brakes gonna work safely? Need to upgrade to brembo or other 4/2 piston calipers? Or use TRD 6/4 calipers? Upgrading the tires, suspension & brake forces much stress on the chassis. Need to stiffen up certain areas?

Again, so called "simple" upgrades in cars, Automobile companies gotta go through CRAP LOAD of stuff to make it "simple".

[einzlr]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Ha... even small turbo, lower ride & bigger tires will totally screwing up EVERYTHING on this car. The design of the suspension and weight and specially lowering it! How much strut work gotta go through dips & bumps. Can struts absolve all those dips & bumps or put a stress on the driver? Maybe into the chassis? Which recalibrate the struts and spring setup... which means all new struts & springs. Small turbo? They need to re-figure out the comp ratio, which require new piston, rods, injectors, and all other internal stuff. Not only that, oil pan, water & oil pump, redesign the under the hood to make a space for "small" turbo. How about ECU? How much research & programing need to get that turbo working properly and efficiently? What happen to the F&R weight ratio? stronger/firmer engine amount? Is transmission can handle the power? How about clutch? How about flywheels? Does it need to be replaced w stronger ones? How about wheel hub bearing? How about wheels? Gonna be using TRD 18's? What tires? How much grip? More traction equal to more work for braking. Stock brakes gonna work safely? Need to upgrade to brembo or other 4/2 piston calipers? Or use TRD 6/4 calipers? Upgrading the tires, suspension & brake forces much stress on the chassis. Need to stiffen up certain areas?

Again, so called "simple" upgrades in cars, Automobile companies gotta go through CRAP LOAD of stuff to make it "simple".

Eggzachary! I'd much rather see them leave the twins as-is and slot in a higher-priced model above them with all the features everyone is clamoring for.

[White Shadow]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Ha... even small turbo, lower ride & bigger tires will totally screwing up EVERYTHING on this car. The design of the suspension and weight and specially lowering it! How much strut work gotta go through dips & bumps. Can struts absolve all those dips & bumps or put a stress on the driver? Maybe into the chassis? Which recalibrate the struts and spring setup... which means all new struts & springs. Small turbo? They need to re-figure out the comp ratio, which require new piston, rods, injectors, and all other internal stuff. Not only that, oil pan, water & oil pump, redesign the under the hood to make a space for "small" turbo. How about ECU? How much research & programing need to get that turbo working properly and efficiently? What happen to the F&R weight ratio? stronger/firmer engine amount? Is transmission can handle the power? How about clutch? How about flywheels? Does it need to be replaced w stronger ones? How about wheel hub bearing? How about wheels? Gonna be using TRD 18's? What tires? How much grip? More traction equal to more work for braking. Stock brakes gonna work safely? Need to upgrade to brembo or other 4/2 piston calipers? Or use TRD 6/4 calipers? Upgrading the tires, suspension & brake forces much stress on the chassis. Need to stiffen up certain areas?

Again, so called "simple" upgrades in cars, Automobile companies gotta go through CRAP LOAD of stuff to make it "simple".

And everything you just said above is exactly the reason why I want to see the three items I mentioned as OEM, right out of the factory. Development work isn't the same as the price tag for the actual hardware.

How many times does someone post that aftermarket wheels/tires mess up the ride or make it too stiff? Someone just posted a review thread and made that exact observation. If Toyota/Subaru spec'd lower springs, they'd surely do it right and tune the rest of the suspension for an acceptable balance of ride & handling. Same goes for the bigger wheels & tires.

This car as it is now is a compromise. But what you also have to realize is that the car as I would have liked to see it is also a compromise. So either way, the development costs are there. If the car was designed from day one with my wishes in mind, the end result wouldn't be a significantly more expensive car than we have today. Maybe a bit more expensive, but nothing outrageous.

Also keep in mind that this is just a wish list of how we would have liked to see the car from the factory. My main gripes are that it needs more torque (and a bit more power), needs to get rid of the 4x4 wheel gaps, and needs some bigger rubber. Address those three things and I think the car would have been an even bigger success than it is so far.

BTW, it's interesting to note that the car in your signature is obviously lowered and has bigger wheel & tires on it. So I think it's safe to say that you'd like to see the same basic look that I mentioned above.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by White Shadow

And everything you just said above is exactly the reason why I want to see the three items I mentioned as OEM, right out of the factory. Development work isn't the same as the price tag for the actual hardware.

How many times does someone post that aftermarket wheels/tires mess up the ride or make it too stiff? Someone just posted a review thread and made that exact observation. If Toyota/Subaru spec'd lower springs, they'd surely do it right and tune the rest of the suspension for an acceptable balance of ride & handling. Same goes for the bigger wheels & tires.

This car as it is now is a compromise. But what you also have to realize is that the car as I would have liked to see it is also a compromise. So either way, the development costs are there. If the car was designed from day one with my wishes in mind, the end result wouldn't be a significantly more expensive car than we have today. Maybe a bit more expensive, but nothing outrageous.

Also keep in mind that this is just a wish list of how we would have liked to see the car from the factory. My main gripes are that it needs more torque (and a bit more power), needs to get rid of the 4x4 wheel gaps, and needs some bigger rubber. Address those three things and I think the car would have been an even bigger success than it is so far.

Next time, I see Tada-san I'll ask him that question, cuz my guess, it's not the case.

Edit: Hell, I'll just email him later

[White Shadow]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Next time, I see Tada-san I'll ask him that question, cuz my guess, it's not the case.

Edit: Hell, I'll just email him later

I'm basing my opinion on the cost of the hardware, not the development costs, simply because they'd have those either way.

Also keep in mind that development costs are a one-time cost. Once the car is developed and the work is done, then the cost can be divided among the cars sold. And if you sell even more cars as a result, then that ends up a good thing.

Hell, Mazda did it with the MX-5 Miata. Remember the factory turbocharged version? The one that also had a revised suspension and bigger wheels & tires? Think of all the development costs involved, yet they still did it and managed to keep the price tag reasonable.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by White Shadow

I'm basing my opinion on the cost of the hardware, not the development costs, simply because they'd have those either way.

Also keep in mind that development costs are a one-time cost. Once the car is developed and the work is done, then the cost can be divided among the cars sold. And if you sell even more cars as a result, then that ends up a good thing.

Hell, Mazda did it with the MX-5 Miata. Remember the factory turbocharged version? The one that also had a revised suspension and bigger wheels & tires? Think of all the development costs involved, yet they still did it and managed to keep the price tag reasonable.

Why are you making more excuses. Chill, it's just a "WHAT IF" situation. You might be right and I might be wrong (or vice versa).

I just gonna be simply asking him "what if" & it's not 100% true if it came true

[White Shadow]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Why are you making more excuses. Chill, it's just a "WHAT IF" situation. You might be right and I might be wrong (or vice versa).

I just gonna be simply asking him "what if" & it's not 100% true if it came true

I'm not making excuses, I'm providing examples. Mazda is a PERFECT example of a company that made the same changes I'd like to see on their small sports car. And they did it with a $25,000 price tag on the car. This is not about who's right or who's wrong. I just think if Mazda can pull it off, so can Toyota/Subaru. Will we ever see it? Who knows? I'd love to see it happen though. Actually, if I could go back in time to 2004, I'd buy a brand new turbo Miata off the lot and make it a low-mileage weekend car.

[Grishbok]

1. Supercharger
2. gt86 aesthetic package

I believe TRD is going the correct route with the supercharger, keeping the philosphy and balance of the car in mind. A turbo has a sharp torque curve, and I believe this particular car to be more fluid. A supercharger would compliment the fluid nature of the power band.

[White Shadow]

Originally Posted by Grishbok

1. Supercharger
2. gt86 aesthetic package

I believe TRD is going the correct route with the supercharger, keeping the philosphy and balance of the car in mind. A turbo has a sharp torque curve, and I believe this particular car to be more fluid. A supercharger would compliment the fluid nature of the power band.

Have you seen the torque curves of the modern twin-scroll turbos? They are extremely flat and provide fantastic low-end torque from less than 1500 RPM. A supercharger works too, but don't discredit a turbo. Both can be fantastic on a small 2.0L engine.

[Grishbok]

Originally Posted by White Shadow

Have you seen the torque curves of the modern twin-scroll turbos? They are extremely flat and provide fantastic low-end torque from less than 1500 RPM. A supercharger works too, but don't discredit a turbo. Both can be fantastic on a small 2.0L engine.

If its a borg-warner ko3 internal wastegate series turbo, sure, but then you have the same power increase, and turbo lag. A supercharger would have the same power output, minus the turbo lag, granted the lag is minimal, but its still a consideration.

Upgrade to a ko4 and you have more lag, sharper curve. Look at the curve of the disco potato, even that puts a rather large and sudden torque increase.

[White Shadow]

Originally Posted by Grishbok

If its a borg-warner ko3 internal wastegate series turbo, sure, but then you have the same power increase, and turbo lag. A supercharger would have the same power output, minus the turbo lag, granted the lag is minimal, but its still a consideration.

Upgrade to a ko4 and you have more lag, sharper curve. Look at the curve of the disco potato, even that puts a rather large and sudden torque increase.

Well, I can only say that I have the equivalent to a K03 in my car (although it's actually an IHI turbo, it's the same size & design as the K03) and there's virtually no lag at all. The stock boost level is 14 psi and peak torque is 1500 - 4200 RPM. It's a fantastic little turbo and helps gives my car's 2.0L engine more than 260 ft.lbs. of torque way down low. This is exactly what I'd like to see on the FR-S/BRZ.

[Nevermore]

It's not so much how it has to be designed, but more so about which options it would have been nice to have available for me. I think it would have been cool if the stitching/bolster color was matched to the paint, or if there was an option to change it. Red works with most of the colors, but I think it would have added some more personality if the seats and stitching matched the car.

A wheel option would have been nice. I know I can probably get better/nicer looking wheels from aftermarket, but there's something about the factory option that appeals to me. I guess it's all about receiving the car perfect, and not having to change a thing myself. So, if I could have switched to better looking, black wheels, I would have liked that.

Maybe a spoiler? I like the JDM spoilers a lot.

Trim piece/console panels matched to the paint. I like the black interior, but I also think it would be cool if I could have the door trim or some of the plastic pieces around the interior matched to the paint. Going back to the stitching, just adds some character.

I guess that's really it. The car is pretty much perfect as it is. I feel like my changes are pretty minor.

Edit: I like the JDM fog lights too. Those standard or as an option would be good as well.

[White Shadow]

Originally Posted by Nevermore

A wheel option would have been nice. I know I can probably get better/nicer looking wheels from aftermarket, but there's something about the factory option that appeals to me.

I agree. It seems kinda lame that there are no optional factory wheels. It's even more lame that both the Scion & Subaru use the same wheels. I guess it was due to cost, but come on....they couldn't even offer unique wheels between the two brands?