Questions about shifting in a manual

[Tgionet]

It's the difference between engine and road speed that's causing the first to second lurch. You have to wait quite a significant amount of time for the revs to drop with stock spinny bits, especially first to second.

[cookiesowns]

Originally Posted by aristo

summoning guru @strat61caster

Since this is an active thread, I've been wondering about a shifting related question recently..

When shifting fast and hard under WOT conditions, my 1st to 2nd gear shift is very un-smooth and sloppy (the car jerks forward violently) however after 2nd, every other gear is fast and smooth.

Am I letting the clutch out too fast? I basically drop it once I'm in the gate because I'm afraid the RPMS will be too high to hang at the catch point for too long

Also, getting in to the gate is physically harder to do - I am basically shoving it in to the 2nd gear gate. Assuming this is rather normal on stock fluids

Thanks for any input

Yes. Let out the clutch slower. Or don't let out the clutch until your revs drop where they should be. Just don't be on the gas until your clutch is fully out.

Also don't shove, let the syncros do it's thing.

[aristo]

Thanks for the input! Theoretically, if you are trying to go as fast as physically possible would the above still apply? (waiting for RPMs to drop)

Is this why people change to lighter weight flywheels?

[n0thing]

Originally Posted by aristo

summoning guru @strat61caster

Since this is an active thread, I've been wondering about a shifting related question recently..

When shifting fast and hard under WOT conditions, my 1st to 2nd gear shift is very un-smooth and sloppy (the car jerks forward violently) however after 2nd, every other gear is fast and smooth.

Am I letting the clutch out too fast? I basically drop it once I'm in the gate because I'm afraid the RPMS will be too high to hang at the catch point for too long

Also, getting in to the gate is physically harder to do - I am basically shoving it in to the 2nd gear gate. Assuming this is rather normal on stock fluids

Thanks for any input

I'm new to driving stick and have the same "problem" too. If I shift at 5k+RPM 1st to 2nd, I'll have to force the shifter in gear as if the gate won't open. Then if I let the clutch out quick, the car launches forward. I tried double-clutching it (no blip in neutral) and it seemed to help as it gave time for the RPM to drop, but I might as well upshift normally and hold the clutch in longer and let it out slower.

Why is it that I see people going to redline, clutch in, shift, clutch out so smoothly and quickly with no delay?

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by aristo

Thanks for the input! Theoretically, if you are trying to go as fast as physically possible would the above still apply? (waiting for RPMs to drop)

Is this why people change to lighter weight flywheels?

Yes. Although I'm not sure how much a lightweight flywheel would help with RPM drop in a drive-by-wire car (the only cars with lightweights that I've driven have been older, cable throttle cars). Certainly in cars that pre-date drive-by-wire, the time you spend waiting for blips and RPM drop when shifting is slashed dramatically by a lightweight flywheel.

[aristo]

So what for example would be a good RPM to wait til shifting second if assuming we went to redline on 1st gear? Sorry these questions are getting dumb and the best answer is almost always go outside and test it yourself, but I can't use the car again until tomorrow :d

[Tgionet]

7400 rpm in first gear is equal to 4457 rpm in second

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by aristo

So what for example would be a good RPM to wait til shifting second if assuming we went to redline on 1st gear? Sorry these questions are getting dumb and the best answer is almost always go outside and test it yourself, but I can't use the car again until tomorrow :d

I honestly can't tell you because I do it based on sound / muscle memory mostly, but when you get back in your car, try pulling out of first, and ever so gently pressing against the gate for second. When the RPMs drop to the right spot, the stick should slot into second gear with very little effort / resistance. I'd guess like 3500 to 4200 rpm? Somewhere around there?

[unsurety]

For the 1-2 shift, let the clutch out more slowly than in other upshifts. If you're comfortable with it, lower the clutch pedal height and remove the pedal helper spring. This makes the clutch pedal feel much more natural and the travel more linear. Side effect is that these *free* mods are so good, it makes driving a stock twin infuriating.

What helps me upshift smoothly is increasing the speed at which I lift the clutch pedal once I get to the bite point. Around that area, I raise my clutch foot 20-30% faster.

[cookiesowns]

Originally Posted by aristo

Thanks for the input! Theoretically, if you are trying to go as fast as physically possible would the above still apply? (waiting for RPMs to drop)

Is this why people change to lighter weight flywheels?

Not sure about the flywheel part.

Correct. I would say the only other way to shift faster ( possibly wearing the clutch more ) is to let go of the clutch out quicker, but getting on the gas quicker too. Seesaw action.

That might be quicker. Tt could just be the gearing for 1-2. Again though, if you're WOT, and at high revs, and you shift, to shift smoothly, you need to get back on the gas quicker, and more gas to maintain your velocity.

[CoupedUpSubie]

Originally Posted by aristo

Thanks for the input! Theoretically, if you are trying to go as fast as physically possible would the above still apply? (waiting for RPMs to drop)

Is this why people change to lighter weight flywheels?

The real key to getting going as fast as possible is making all three motions at about the same time. I use two or three fingers when pulling the shifter towards me and my palm when pushing the shifter. One thing this prevents is putting a lot of force on the shifter. One reason I have yet to adjust the clutch pedal is because I use the delay in disengagement. As you are letting off the gas the clutch pedal should be going down. When the clutch pedal is on it's way down you should be taking it out of the gear it's in and putting it into the next as soon as the pedal hits the floorboard. Lift off the clutch pedal quickly while getting on the gas. It takes a while to get good, I'm still perfecting it in the BRZ but I could shift my impreza very quick(very handy in the snow).

[fika84]

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

Yes. Although I'm not sure how much a lightweight flywheel would help with RPM drop in a drive-by-wire car (the only cars with lightweights that I've driven have been older, cable throttle cars). Certainly in cars that pre-date drive-by-wire, the time you spend waiting for blips and RPM drop when shifting is slashed dramatically by a lightweight flywheel.

I put in an 11.8lb (our stock is ~23lb) Exedy flywheel and it definitely drops way faster than stock.. downside being if you're NOT trying to shift quick (normal daily driving), the RPM's drop to fast and you have a slight jerk letting out the clutch because the RPM's need to rise to match the tranny speed. This led me to shifting quicker on a normal day to day basis to keep shifts smooth.

Lightweight flywheel also helps with blipping the throttle for rev matching since you don't need to hit the gas pedal as hard to get the RPM's to jump.

I also never leisurely heel toe. I personally find it much much easier to heel toe when it's needed, IE - really hard braking coming into a corner at high RPM. I do find myself rev matching for downshifting if I'm trying not to use the engine to slow myself down.

[n0thing]

Originally Posted by Tgionet

7400 rpm in first gear is equal to 4457 rpm in second

So you hold the clutch in and wait for the 3K RPM drop? Wouldn't that kill the throw-out bearing?

[stonenewt]

Originally Posted by n0thing

So you hold the clutch in and wait for the 3K RPM drop? Wouldn't that kill the throw-out bearing?

From experience it's only when the clutch is slipping & under load that you kill the thrust bearing. I assume this it because it's heat that kills it off & lot of heat is generate when riding the clutch. Also the wait for the revs to drop shouldn't be long at all.