2022 Twin to STR

[Simmons]

My video's from the NJ Pro

[conehead]

Originally Posted by Molez93

^ Partially true. I would argue the frustrated new-ish person ought to consider the right vehicle & prep as a necessary but very much insufficient criteria for success. I suspect most people in this thread know it already.

If you don’t spend enough time focused on getting better, it doesn’t really matter what car you lose in.

Only hardcore autox junkies base their car choice on autox classing, and even they can get burned after a single season.


Some drivers can have fun without being competitive, but most want to measure their success and progress through competition and they realize quickly that they would have to change cars to do that so they quit. I've seen this often even with just minor mods. Someone shows up with a great autox car but they just spent a bunch on some mod (usually with little or no performance gain) that throws them into an insane class and they never come back. The performance point system solves this.

[timurrrr]

Originally Posted by conehead

The SCCA classing system is a complete disaster and needs to be scrapped entirely. Having a dominant car that you must have and then changing that every few years is insanity and it drives regular people away. The biggest draw to autox is that you can use your normal car, but then most people go to a few events, realize they can never win in their car and quit.

I always get amused when I read how to set up an ND Miata to be competitive in CS: huge front bar, long and stiff rear bump stops to effectively increase the spring rate... All those things in a class that's supposed to be "beginner friendly, as little mods as possible".

And then the twins aren't allowed any reasonable way to add front camber in DS.
Or that 10mm issue with the RLCAs on gen2 cars even in STR.

[Molez93]

Originally Posted by conehead

Only hardcore autox junkies base their car choice on autox classing, and even they can get burned after a single season.


Some drivers can have fun without being competitive, but most want to measure their success and progress through competition and they realize quickly that they would have to change cars to do that so they quit. I've seen this often even with just minor mods. Someone shows up with a great autox car but they just spent a bunch on some mod (usually with little or no performance gain) that throws them into an insane class and they never come back. The performance point system solves this.

We’re probably in agreement on the vast majority of the challenges and reality. However I don’t see a point system as a fix though, because the real issue is many new people grossly overestimate their skill and a “right” to be competitive.

[DocWalt]

Originally Posted by conehead

Only hardcore autox junkies base their car choice on autox classing, and even they can get burned after a single season.


Some drivers can have fun without being competitive, but most want to measure their success and progress through competition and they realize quickly that they would have to change cars to do that so they quit. I've seen this often even with just minor mods. Someone shows up with a great autox car but they just spent a bunch on some mod (usually with little or no performance gain) that throws them into an insane class and they never come back. The performance point system solves this.

I started as that person with a minor mod that buried me in 2013. I'm still here.

Having fun with your friends and having a competitive class to play in is what matters. Locally we had a "catch-all" class that made it tons of fun. SCCA made the right move with the XS class.

Originally Posted by timurrrr

I always get amused when I read how to set up an ND Miata to be competitive in CS: huge front bar, long and stiff rear bump stops to effectively increase the spring rate... All those things in a class that's supposed to be "beginner friendly, as little mods as possible".

And then the twins aren't allowed any reasonable way to add front camber in DS.
Or that 10mm issue with the RLCAs on gen2 cars even in STR.

Having run CS in an ND very competitively... and having driven a LOT of other NDs in CS and helped with setup on many of them.... Bumpstops are $20 each and easy to install. That said, the ND2 bumpstops on stock shocks and a cheap $200 front swaybar has won national events. Front swaybar is a necessity on pretty much every street class car, so calling out the ND for that is pretty disingenuous.

Every street class car besides some SS cars and Corvettes is camber limited. Part of the point of street class is no major mods... Camber is easy on some cars, but on many cars it involves expensive parts.


The rear control arm thing is annoying, but people like a certain asshole from Texas already abuse rules thoroughly and you stack up a ton of small things like that and it's a big advantage.

Originally Posted by Molez93

We’re probably in agreement on the vast majority of the challenges and reality. However I don’t see a point system as a fix though, because the real issue is many new people grossly overestimate their skill and a “right” to be competitive.

Having run autocrosses with points systems for mods, it doesn't really fix anything. You just end up with different cars that are competitive, but still clearly one car that people will trend towards because it has an advantage.

On your latter point, 1000% yes. So many novices show up and get frustrated that they sucked and blame everything but their own lack of talent. It's easy to blame the car or the rules...

[timurrrr]

Originally Posted by DocWalt

Front swaybar is a necessity on pretty much every street class car, so calling out the ND for that is pretty disingenuous.

For the record, it was out of lack of knowledge rather than bad intent. I only ever looked at setup for twins (as I have one) and NDs (as my gf has one).

[DocWalt]

Originally Posted by timurrrr

For the record, it was out of lack of knowledge rather than bad intent. I only ever looked at setup for twins (as I have one) and NDs (as my gf has one).

Disingenuous was definitely stronger wording than I intended, my apologies.

In any case, street class is stupid and should be avoided. ST is awesome, even if we're underdogs the cars are fun and we don't have to tune the car with bumpstops.

[timurrrr]

Also if you ever get a chance to install a non-Karcepts front bar on an ND Miata, you will get to appreciate how easy EVERYTHING is on our cars...

[DocWalt]

Yeah.... that's a no from me dawg. Karcepts bar was only easy because it involved the use of a sawzall haha

[conehead]

Originally Posted by Molez93

However I don’t see a point system as a fix though, because the real issue is many new people grossly overestimate their skill and a “right” to be competitive.

They just need the possibility to be competitive. Also, after you buy and build a car, you should have some expectation to not be crushed by a classing change the next year.

Originally Posted by DocWalt

Every street class car besides some SS cars and Corvettes is camber limited. Part of the point of street class is no major mods... Camber is easy on some cars, but on many cars it involves expensive parts.


Having run autocrosses with points systems for mods, it doesn't really fix anything. You just end up with different cars that are competitive, but still clearly one car that people will trend towards because it has an advantage.

With performance points you can decide which combination of mods is best for you and your car. The system is dependent on making small adjustments so a dominant car loses a couple points and has to remove a part or move up a class, and the driver gets to choose. It self balances and is as close to fair as I have seen. Camber is a perfect example because we need it to make tires last, if its not allowed at all your only option is to change cars or destroy tires. That's expensive and dumb.

[otter]

I've run with both styles of classing (SCCA and NASA) and both have their flaws. NASA's is more approachable for the average person but there's too few classes and too much disparity in cars within a given class even if they're maxed on points. SCCA's system is better for close competition but it does require that you build to the rules and it will fuck you if you're not building for the sport. IMO, as I think I stated earlier, the SCCA classing setup is really due for a refresh/overall, but I do prefer SCCA-style classing and the closer competition it brings.

[steverife]

I haven't looked at NASA-X points in over a decade, but not a fan.

1) The classes are really unbalanced. I recall going through the points and realizing that you could run stuff like a 1500 lb turbo 1g CRX on slicks against a stock Mini Cooper S.

2) I like building to constraints. It is kind of like how a lot of golfers can go to the course and keep their ball between the 2 trees and on the fairway. But then they go out to the range and there really isn't anything to reign them in and they spray the ball all over the place because they don't really have defined targets and they are just out there yamming on balls.

It really only works because people are casual about it.

[conehead]

NASA does take it too far. They try to mix everything together and also are way too lax about adjusting the points based on results. You would need some basic categories like street stockish / modded street / full race builds, with maybe 5 groups in each for a total of 15.


SCCA has what 40?? classes, and then for some crazy reason also a ladies version of each class to make it 80!!! Each with a specific mod list and dominant car that changes every few years. They have so many that at local events its common end up in a class by yourself. Unfortunately SCCA only listens to the fanatics at the cost of the new blood. They have come up with the excellent PAX system for cars of different classes to compete, but need something like that within each class and then you could merge a lot of classes.

[e1_griego]

Most every club in our region runs PAX superclasses so that everyone has someone to run against. So like STS, STR, and STX will run against each other on index within one class. Also useful to run an Open Pax/Pro Pax class for the fast guys to run against one another on index.