|
BRZ First-Gen (2012+) -- General Topics All discussions about the first-gen Subaru BRZ coupe |
![]() |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
![]() |
#113 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Drives: 2013 BRZ - Sterling Silver Metallic
Location: CA
Posts: 84
Thanks: 74
Thanked 32 Times in 23 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
The suspension doesn't "compensate" for anything - The goal of the suspension is to a) control the mass of the car (ideally preventing body roll) and to b) keep the tires in as constant of a connection with the pavement as is possible (ideally minimizing camber change in bump and rebound.) Traditionally it has been impossible to maximize the effectiveness of both goals A and B, however with new active suspension technologies (See: McLaren 12C) it's possible to do a lot, and have some added benefits like increased ride comfort. I'll conclude with the Porsche 911 and the Ford Focus ST. Both cars are excellent performers, despite having disadvantageous engine positions. The recent 911s don't have the nasty handling characteristics associated with a swing-axle suspension geometry, and the Focus doesn't feel like a front wheel drive car, again thanks to a lot of chassis/suspension work. I don't think anyone will argue that the optimal place to put an engine is between the axles. I COMPLETELY agree that a mid-engine platform is the best starting point. My argument is that this isn't as important as having a good chassis setup. Hopefully that ramble was at least slightly coherent. ![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#114 | |||
-
Join Date: Nov 2012
Drives: '13 FRS - STX
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 10,382
Thanks: 13,780
Thanked 9,501 Times in 5,012 Posts
Mentioned: 94 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
|
Absolutely, for most people this is true. If you're chasing performance then we'd be having a slightly different conversation.
Quote:
When a car is designed, they figure out the packaging first based either on performance, utility, or marketing goals. Placement of the engine and figuring out where the mass is located, creating a simplified model and analyzing it is how a suspension gets developed, a different mass profile will result in a radically different analytic model with a completely different feeling when driving and a completely different suspension setup. I think we are in agreement though, a suspension makes a chassis configuration work (well or poorly) but I argue that placement of mass is more important than this developed suspension when it comes to handling, it's the physics. You can slam your Mustang and make it stiff as a rock and it can outgrip a brand new Ferrari or whatever super car but you are inherently fighting the physics of the vehicle whereas a mid-engined or rear-engined would be more agreeable to the rigors of a track due to their inherent instabilities. As per your original example, Toyota used the suspension to compensate for a twitchy mid-engine platform with the MR2. An unstable system is quicker to respond, that's why the 911 works so well ("nasty" is subjective, as stated earlier I think it's brilliant). Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#115 | |
Boxer Fan
Join Date: Nov 2012
Drives: 2013 Subaru BRZ
Location: Beaverton, OR
Posts: 72
Thanks: 5
Thanked 19 Times in 13 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
This is a myth. Of the 15 Porsches I've owned, I wouldn't call any of them stupid expensive. More than most cars? Sure. But stupid expensive? No.
Mostly true. But oil and filters aren't unique. Neither are the plugs. ..or brake fluid. Really general maintenance isn't bad at all. Very rarely, actually. I've never needed any special tools. (Admittedly, I haven't done all the maintenance on my Porsches.) Quote:
Older Porsches might have more maintenance, but that's typical of any older car. It's simply the difference in buying a new car v and old car. But, as old cars go, the 911s I've owned (save for one I "bought cheap") have been incredibly reliable and have cost very little to maintain. ![]()
__________________
Doug
2012 Subaru Impreza 2.0i 1986 Porsche 911 |
|
![]() |
![]() |
The Following User Says Thank You to Doug&Julie For This Useful Post: | WolfpackS2k (05-23-2013) |
![]() |
#116 | ||||||
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Drives: 2013 BRZ - Sterling Silver Metallic
Location: CA
Posts: 84
Thanks: 74
Thanked 32 Times in 23 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The 911 was unstable when lifting-off the throttle mid-corner because the swing-axle suspension would unload, causing rebound and massive camber change, resulting in a large loss of grip at the rear of the car. This caused inexperienced drivers to spin, because the front of the car still had grip to turn, while the rear needed more grip than was available to maintain the turn. The current 911 has a LOT of corner exit stability, apparently because the engine is over the rear wheels. As a consequence, it requires more care (to avoid stable understeer) when initially turning in, because there is less weight over the front wheels. I'm still working through the physics behind why this happens, but I know for a fact that this is the case. Quote:
TL;DR - A car with a "bad" engine placement (non mid-engine) can be a great car if the suspension is good, but with a "bad" suspension, a mid-engine car will be shit. |
||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#117 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Drives: 2013 BRZ - Sterling Silver Metallic
Location: CA
Posts: 84
Thanks: 74
Thanked 32 Times in 23 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Small addition: The rotational moment of inertia in a mid-engine car is usually smaller than that of a front or rear engine car, which allows the car to turn more quickly. This also means that a mid-engined car may spin more quickly if the driver looses control.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#118 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Drives: BRZ
Location: USA
Posts: 485
Thanks: 199
Thanked 339 Times in 158 Posts
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 10 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
This is straight from my Porsche maintenance manual: 1) oil and oil filter every 10,000 miles or 1 year 2) spark plug every 40k or 4 years 3) drive belt replacement 60k or 6 years 4) tranny fluid replaced every 120k or 12 years Yes, if you blow an engine the Porsche engine is more expensive than the subaru. It's a more expensive and powerful car. I haven't had to purchase any special/expensive tools to change the oil or brakes. Track consumables are linearly comparable in price if you take size of pads/rotors into account. It's not exponential.
__________________
2013 Subaru BRZ
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
The Following User Says Thank You to orthojoe For This Useful Post: | WolfpackS2k (05-23-2013) |
![]() |
#119 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Drives: '13 BRZ, '06 997, Other Things(TM)
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 1,078
Thanks: 1,715
Thanked 670 Times in 351 Posts
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
That's why you need to trail-brake 911's into corners. Then-- once you're turned in-- you can roll onto the throttle very heavily since the weight transfer results in a ton of rear-end grip, which means you can really put power down effectively. Basically the 911's weight distribution means you can brake very, very hard into a corner (because the weight distribution that is rear-biased in a neutral state becomes fairly evenly distributed under braking), and then accelerate very hard out of a corner once properly turned in (since you end up with an ungodly amount of rear-end grip). They really don't like meandering into corners. Also, you have to be careful with the back end-- it breaks free slowly but there's a lot of mass back there which means lots of inertia once it goes. The feel of driving a 911 is a bit different than most cars, but its super fun once you get used to it. You can really use braking / throttle lifts to steer the car from the back end-- very involving and very satisfying when you get it right, and there's just so much grip when you do! ![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Ganthrithor For This Useful Post: |
![]() |
#120 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Drives: 2013 BRZ - Sterling Silver Metallic
Location: CA
Posts: 84
Thanks: 74
Thanked 32 Times in 23 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Excellent explanation, thanks for that!
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#121 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Drives: '12 C63 P31, '23 GRC
Location: NC
Posts: 3,210
Thanks: 2,951
Thanked 2,078 Times in 1,189 Posts
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Lots of excellent posts on this page explaining the nuances of a 911's handling (and its advantages). Also good info on Porsche maintenance, which I've been trying to spread as well.
Quote:
Likewise track pads for the Porsche cost more than my S2000. But from talking to people at the track their pads were wearing much better than mine (sliding caliper FTL ![]()
__________________
Current: 2023 GRC Circuit Edition, 2012 C63 AMG P31
Past: (2) 2000 MR2 Spyder, 2017 GTI Sport, 2006 Porsche Cayman S, Supercharged 2013 BRZ-L, 2007 Honda S2000, 1992 Integra GS-R |
|
![]() |
![]() |
The Following User Says Thank You to WolfpackS2k For This Useful Post: | strat61caster (05-23-2013) |
![]() |
#122 | ||
-
Join Date: Nov 2012
Drives: '13 FRS - STX
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 10,382
Thanks: 13,780
Thanked 9,501 Times in 5,012 Posts
Mentioned: 94 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
A point about when I said "stiffen and lower" what I really meant was lowering the c.g. (generally good for dynamics as I do not have to explain) and stiffening the chassis so you can allow the suspension to be compliant and hug the road. Too many shortcuts in my explanations ![]() Quote:
![]() :happy0180: |
||
![]() |
![]() |
|
|
![]() |
Tags |
brz forum, brz forums, subaru brz, subaru brz forum, subaru brz forums |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|
![]() |
||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Sad goodbye | sieglapj | AFRICA | 12 | 04-26-2013 06:44 AM |
FRS Test Drive from Cayman S / Exige Owners Perspective *WITH PICS* | Rosso_Corsa | Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum | 94 | 11-03-2012 12:50 AM |
Hello FRS! Goodbye GTi. | LXXXVI | CANADA | 0 | 06-21-2012 09:16 PM |
Goodbye BRZ, Hello FRS! | kidgogeta | Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum | 2 | 06-05-2012 02:41 PM |