Oh yes another brake pads thread

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Pat

Mike, can you please clarify what Hawk pads you're talking about? DTC is a range of five different compounds. In my experience, the most street-friendly (30) isn't up to the challenge of a stock-powered 86 on SX2s at the track. I use 60s regularly on track and like them. That is the middle of the range. I believe they don't last as long as the CSG track pads (C2?), but in the big picture have similar feel. Then there are a couple even more heat-tolerant DTC compounds over the 60s.
I don't think I've ever driven the CSG CP compound. That said, I have a tough time believing any street pad is as heat tolerant as a DTC-60.
I could be wrong. It has happened once or twice before. But if you could clarify which DTC compound you're referring to I think that would be helpful.
Oh, and I totally believe the CP compound could be better than the XP10. The fact that Carbotech claims them as track-only pads is laughable. At least for an 86.

The entire range, when it comes to sheer capacity.

I've been running it on my 2022 on stock calipers, and the CP has survived Autoclub Speedway, and quite a few of the NorCal Veterans with the 22 are also using the CP successfully.

As always, if on a stickier tire (A052, RT660, r-compounds, slicks), the user will want to be on a race pad, as the CP's friction is better matched to true street tires and low-grip track tires. It'll still work with the stickier tires, but the long pedal won't make for the best heel-toeing.

[Pat]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

The entire range, when it comes to sheer capacity.

Hmmm. OK, maybe I don't understand what "capacity" means. I think of that as a pad's ability to tolerate high heat without significantly affecting performance. Is that correct? If so, you're saying the CSG street compound is a better, more stable compound at extreme temperatures than a DTC-80?
I feel like I'm missing something here. That sounds too good to be true. I know you love the CSG pads, but there is a reason experienced drivers choose to run two different compounds when driving their street car on the track. I must be missing something.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Pat

Hmmm. OK, maybe I don't understand what "capacity" means. I think of that as a pad's ability to tolerate high heat without significantly affecting performance. Is that correct? If so, you're saying the CSG street compound is a better, more stable compound at extreme temperatures than a DTC-80?
I feel like I'm missing something here. That sounds too good to be true. I know you love the CSG pads, but there is a reason experienced drivers choose to run two different compounds when driving their street car on the track. I must be missing something.

It'll handle the heat.

The friction is designed to pair with a street tire, so you need to get much deeper into the pedal than with a race pad that has race friction response.

[Pat]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

It'll handle the heat.

The friction is designed to pair with a street tire, so you need to get much deeper into the pedal than with a race pad that has race friction response.

Ahhh...okay thank you. So the coefficient of friction is stable across a wide temperature range. It just takes more pedal pressure. That sounds similar to a DS2500. Am I barking up the right tree?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Pat

Ahhh...okay thank you. So the coefficient of friction is stable across a wide temperature range. It just takes more pedal pressure. That sounds similar to a DS2500. Am I barking up the right tree?

You have the right idea, difference being the CP will handle way more heat than a DS2500, and IF you get into the upper end of the heat range, the CP will last significantly longer. Ultimately, the CP isn't a race pad, and if a user is sitting at race temps, they really should be using a race pad.

To put it in perspective, I've been running the CP on my Turbo BRZ and not having fade issues. I do have to get a bit deeper into the pedal, and the CP isn't a great match when I'm running race compounds, but with SX2 or RS4, it's just-right.

The CP is for the user who runs street tires, street drives their car, but want's the capacity to do an occasional track day here and there without having to commit to race pads. Anyone tracking regularly really should be using race pads for optimal pad life/dollar.

[FeRS]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

This is my recommendation, and I think it'll make more sense.

The CP, while a street pad, has enough capacity to outperform most entry level race pads, such as a Carbotech XP10 or Hawk DTC, when it comes to raw heat tolerance.

This is nice to know, I'm sure CP will be great in that case.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Start with the CP, and the brake fluid of your choice (Endless RF-650 or Project Mu G-Four are my recommendations).

If and when you start fading the CP on track (will take quite a bit, and you will have a lot of room for learning before this happens), retire the CP to Street and AutoX duty, and use the C1 on track. With Indy500 tires, and paying careful attention to NOT over-using ABS, you should not encounter any fade with the CP.

Wet boiling point is irellevent if you're changing your brake fluid regularly, as you should be if you're doing any sort of performance driving.

I was mostly interested in the region from like 30-50% from dry to wet boiling points, it seems SRF has a much larger usable range than the other fluids. However, I did read on the rennlist forums that RF-650 is less hygroscopic than other fluids which also would increase its usable life as far as I can tell. Do those data points matter at all or does the regular changing negate any effects those would have?

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

IMO, spend the money you save from only getting 1 set of pads on an AIM Solo 2 DL, so that you can focus on improving the driver mod, which you will keep for the rest of your life as well as any other car you get in the future.

I was actually considering one of those. Is the DL's capability to read from the ECU actually that helpful over the normal Solo 2?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by FeRS

I was actually considering one of those. Is the DL's capability to read from the ECU actually that helpful over the normal Solo 2?

You can see ABS use, brake pressure, throttle usage, steering, and more.

It gives you nearly as much data as a pro car, for less than 5% of a pro setup price.

[villainous_frx]

Originally Posted by FeRS

Is the DL's capability to read from the ECU actually that helpful over the normal Solo 2?

Solo2 non-DL is more or less a GPS lap timer, while the DL version is a GPS lap timer as well as a data logger and data output screen (if you'd like, plenty of configurations). Personally, I got a used Solo DL off of ebay for less than 50% the cost of a new Solo2 DL.

[FeRS]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

You can see ABS use, brake pressure, throttle usage, steering, and more.

It gives you nearly as much data as a pro car, for less than 5% of a pro setup price.

Thanks for the help Mike! I went ahead and ordered a set of CP pads and RF-650. I'll check out some used Solo DLs @villainous_frx mentioned (thanks for that advice too )

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by villainous_frx

Solo2 non-DL is more or less a GPS lap timer, while the DL version is a GPS lap timer as well as a data logger and data output screen (if you'd like, plenty of configurations). Personally, I got a used Solo DL off of ebay for less than 50% the cost of a new Solo2 DL.

Download your data frequently. I've gotten into the habit of downloading every session.

The Solo DL has 16mb, vs the 4gb of a Solo 2 DL.

(guy who owns 4 Solo DLs)

[Scargod]

CSG Mike said "The CP, while a street pad, has enough capacity to outperform most entry level race pads, such as a Carbotech XP10 or Hawk DTC, when it comes to raw heat tolerance."

CSG SPEC CP PERFORMANCE 0.43 - 0.49 μ (chart shows .42 min/48 μ max) 50 - 700 °C
https://www.counterspacegarage.com/p...ds#performance

Most Hawk DTC pads exceed 871 °C and friction is higher @ .50 μ and go to .58~.63 μ
Hawk HT-10 0.48 - 0.52 μ 49-704 °C
Hawk HT-10 Brembo front: $262.79 / CSG CP front: $390
https://www.hawkperformance.com/compounds/motorsports

[Xed32]

Other options. I use the Endless MX72-Plus for street and track and love them. Was advised that the CC-RG makes a bit of noise, but both should be good dual duty and cost isn't bad from RHD Japan or BlackHawk Japan. I'm only on Advan V601 tires currently.

MX72 Plus
Material: Ceramic Carbon Metal
Applicable Rotor Temperature (℃): 50~750
Friction Coefficient (μ): 0.39 ~ 0.47

CC-Rg
Material: Semi Metallic (Ceramic Carbon Metal)
Applicable Rotor Temperature (℃): 50 ~ 800
Friction Coefficient (μ): 0.38 ~ 0.45

There's also the pMu HC+. Hear they are a bit dusty though.
Material: Super graphite metallic, Applicable Rotor Temperature: 0-800C, Friction Coefficient: 0.43-0.58u

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Xed32

Other options. I use the Endless MX72-Plus for street and track and love them. Was advised that the CC-RG makes a bit of noise, but both should be good dual duty and cost isn't bad from RHD Japan or BlackHawk Japan. I'm only on Advan V601 tires currently.

MX72 Plus
Material: Ceramic Carbon Metal
Applicable Rotor Temperature (℃): 50~750
Friction Coefficient (μ): 0.39 ~ 0.47

CC-Rg
Material: Semi Metallic (Ceramic Carbon Metal)
Applicable Rotor Temperature (℃): 50 ~ 800
Friction Coefficient (μ): 0.38 ~ 0.45

There's also the pMu HC+. Hear they are a bit dusty though.
Material: Super graphite metallic, Applicable Rotor Temperature: 0-800C, Friction Coefficient: 0.43-0.58u

The PMU HC+ are super noisy.

[Xed32]

So the HC+ and CC-RG are pretty similar then. I've been very happy with the MX72-Plus. They don't disintegrate like the DS2500 and only emit a light chirp every now and again on the street. I don't do enough track days to justify dedicated track pads, if so i would run Gloc.