Next Gen BRZ/86!

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Shit, I see it now! There's no way you can make that RWD!

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by tomm.brz

Oh come on, the 4c is a nice track with more than respectable car, even without manual transmission
and his chassis is superb


like superb is our chassis, i never said the contrary
didn't really wanted to criticize it or what you said, just that, if money wouldnt be a problem, they could do maybe a carbon fiber chassis and work around it to get in par with the performance of our car and even surpass it.. too bad the price would skyrocket

I asked them once if a carbon fiber chassis would be an option like the LFA. The answer was that it was out of the question not so much because of the cost, but more that if you had an accident with even a small impact to the chassis you would have to throw away the whole car. Apparently this is not an issue for people that can buy an LFA, but a real issue for all rest of the customers including insurance companies.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by rvoll

1) The scenario that Toyota pulls out is not a fact stated anywhere. So you're saying your argument is based upon a false premise?


Yosh covered this already.

2) Is the Toyota 86/BRZ included in the "full range of Subaru cars"? Subaru's announcements all say that every model will specifically get the SGP with the exception of the 86/BRZ in which they say it will just be upgraded. No mention of the SGP and the BRZ can be specifically found.


The SGP info does not address the BRZ anyplace. The only people that said the BRZ would have it's own platform were in blogs. They speculated. The BRZ makes up well under 1% of the cars they make. The fact that they don't mention it is not surprising.

3) What "factual" evidence SPECIFICALLY STATED BY SUBARU DIRECTLY, have I disregarded? If it is not specifically stated by Subaru, it is just theory, not evidence. Trying to say that VW did it, so it is fact, is ludicrous. Believing that you know what Subaru will do better than Subaru itself is demonstrating a false, "superior knowledge".


The fact that they state they will build a whole range of vehicles on the same platform is what you ignore. The examples provided were in response to your repeated instance that a platform made primarily for AWD can not be RWD.

4) So if the lead engineer on a project comes from Toyota, is that factual evidence that they will follow Subaru's dictates? You can falsely make up a story that Subaru "might" take the lead, but does that make sense when the lead engineer belongs to a different company? That's trying to rationalize a POV rather than logically deducting a result.
Pretty sure you didn't understand a single thing I said there since this reply makes no sense to my statement. Subaru DID have the lead on much of the car even when the Chief Engineer worked for another company. Read the history of the development.

5) You say that any platform can be used for any type of platform. Again, trying to rationalize facts that are not there. Nowhere does Subaru say the SGP will be used for RWD cars. Yet, they specifically say that AWD is part of the SGP. Why do you disregard what Subaru actually says?


They do not say there will be no RWD only that they will take full advantage of their current specialties. Again it is less than 1% of their production so not mentioning RWD is not surprising but it's omission does not exclude it as possible. It does not change the fact that the platform could very easily be used for RWD only which you insist is an impossible engineering feat.

6) Again, you present absolutely no substantiated facts -- only how you can rationalize a BRZ is based upon the SGP. I've been a little harsh on you guys by calling it "fake news". But what else do you call made up theories based upon no substantiated facts?


Substituted facts
Subaru has a platform that will be used from small cars up to big cars
Any platform can be altered for any drive train. It just takes a little engineering


Do you understand the difference between a theory and speculation?


It's been fun going back and forth on this, on a couple of accounts. First, I have learned a bit more about the SGP because I've had to review much of what Subaru has specifically said about the subject. Secondly, learning about the VW platform was interesting even if there is no association with what Subaru is doing. Lastly, it is an interesting psychological study seeing how brand/car bias affects deductive reasoning. Perhaps it is a function of how tied people are to their cars. I really like the BRZ, or I would not have bought one. But I am not brand loyal, nor do I wish to significantly modify the car from stock. I think some of the stuff you guys do to your cars that are going to be used for the street just doesn't make sense like extra wide wheels and tires, significant lowering, headers, etc. The only one that does make some sense are turbos because an argument can be made that at this time of high hp cars, a boost in hp makes sense.


Ahhh so you think I am some young Subaru fanboi then. That explains the condescending attitude. I assure you I am neither and had zero experience, loyalty or even desire to know about Subaru nor Toyota prior to stumbling across the FRS in a showroom while killing time one day. I didn't even know they built the damn thing up until that point. The one I own is the very first one I ever laid eyes on in real life or even pictures.

None of us really knows what the next generation of BRZ will be like. Perhaps like Ford who is getting rid of most of its sedans, the BRZ will eventually disappear. It seems that the only profitable cars left are SUV's and trucks. The Subaru Global Platform will certainly help if that's the way they go. That said, I have my BRZ and it is a blast to drive. I plan to keep it for several years until I get so old my children take my keys away from me. If I had to guess about the direction of the industry based on current trends, the hot cars of the future will be SUV's. They are a much better platform for safety, passenger packaging, providing the room for blown engines, and, dare I say, scalability.


No we do not know and have not claimed to. I clearly stated from the start that the new platform was my speculation under very specific conditions (Subaru going it alone) and none of us have claimed that it was an expectation nor even a high probability.

The key factor, long term, for any developmental pattern is the associated economics. And I don't see the economics of the BRZ to FHI being significant in any way. Sales of mass sports cars continue to drop and at some time, sales volume will lower profitability. That said, I've always had sports cars my entire life and irrationally, I will continue to have them.


These have always been low margin cars and were never built to build profit. They were built because they wanted to and will die when they are bored with them (both figuratively so don't try to pick that wording apart).

No more posts on this subject for me.


We shall see...
Enjoy....

.

[tomm.brz]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

I asked them once if a carbon fiber chassis would be an option like the LFA. The answer was that it was out of the question not so much because of the cost, but more that if you had an accident with even a small impact to the chassis you would have to throw away the whole car. Apparently this is not an issue for people that can buy an LFA, but a real issue for all rest of the customers including insurance companies.

and there we are again with the compromise of the money
if money weren t a problem we would find available a car similar to ours, even better with carbon fiber chassis and all the other pretty cool things
that s was i was talking about, you made it look like the definitve/best ever chassis in the world but there is always something that can be better
Said so, i love our chassis just as you do

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

I asked them once if a carbon fiber chassis would be an option like the LFA. The answer was that it was out of the question not so much because of the cost, but more that if you had an accident with even a small impact to the chassis you would have to throw away the whole car. Apparently this is not an issue for people that can buy an LFA, but a real issue for all rest of the customers including insurance companies.

That's kind of weird. I am not super experienced with carbon, but in general it is pretty easy to repair and does not really deflect when damaged. I'd imagine any impact that would damage the chassis would do just as much to a metal chassis car.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

That's kind of weird. I am not super experienced with carbon, but in general it is pretty easy to repair and does not really deflect when damaged. I'd imagine any impact that would damage the chassis would do just as much to a metal chassis car.

It's easy to repair cosmetically, but once you get a failure between the fibers and the matrix, that part will never be able to take its intended load again. The fibers or matrix are not strong until they're bonded together, and once the bond breaks you cannot repair it well, only patch the damaged area.

Composite failure mechanics are already very hard to predict in ideal situations on a perfect part, so with crash safety in mind it would be virtually impossible to predict the way a patched tub would react in a crash. That's the main reason.

[NoHaveMSG]

Ahhhh. Yeah that makes sense. Especially coming from the liability of repairing the tub.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Shit, I see it now! There's no way you can make that RWD!

Figures. A GOOD engineer could do it!

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by tomm.brz

and there we are again with the compromise of the money
if money weren t a problem we would find available a car similar to ours, even better with carbon fiber chassis and all the other pretty cool things
that s was i was talking about, you made it look like the definitve/best ever chassis in the world but there is always something that can be better

Said so, i love our chassis just as you do

It is not always about the money. It is not easy to prepare a car for racing and if something happens then to start with a new car from scratch. I mean independently of money, the lost time counts even more. That's why I mentioned before the racing part. Of course, you can argue that you can have two or more same cars but I am not aware of many teams that can do this.

[tomm.brz]

and all those racing cars with a carbon fiber chassis that cost 10x to buy and to maintain?
they could make an incident and throw away the car because of damages, but at least untill the cars worked, they has a f**king carbon fiber chassis
one could easily throw away a brz after an incident, also with aluminum chassis.
what you say it s just another advantages to people who cannot afford to spend too much money on it

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by tomm.brz

and all those racing cars with a carbon fiber chassis that cost 10x to buy and to maintain?
they could make an incident and throw away the car because of damages, but at least untill the cars worked, they has a f**king carbon fiber chassis
one could easily throw away a brz after an incident, also with aluminum chassis.
what you say it s just another advantages to people who cannot afford to spend too much money on it

Yes sure you can see it also like this, but the cost difference as you mentioned is huge. The thing is that if you can really afford so much cost, then you can also afford a racing driver and you lose the whole meaning of racing. You are not anymore an athlete, but more of a manager or team leader. This is the kind of gap our cars fill in and this is the reason that if there is a next generation, then it would be better to get it right. Unless they want to present something different and then certain people will have to search somewhere else.

[tomm.brz]

fair enough : )

[86 South Africa]

Came here to read about next Gen 86... leaving thinking what just happened?
#threadDerail

[FitchAlcyone]

Originally Posted by 86 South Africa

Came here to read about next Gen 86... leaving thinking what just happened?
#threadDerail