Does electronic aids help or ...

[redwine]

Hi,

Just want to get some opinions.

Was taking a left corner on my BRZ when the car suddenly steer more towards left in a 'floating manner'.
(i suppose the torque vectoring kicks in). Est 60m/hr wet surface.
I have to immediately steer right to prevent hitting the car on the left lane.
And when it steer too much to the right, i have to counter steer and reduce gas to finally straighten the car.

Been driving for 20+yrs on traditional car w/o electronic aids.
Any under/over steers, i must have sub-consciously corrected them in the past
Being alive is testimonial to this as i do drive spiritedly though i wouldnt consider myself a highly aggressive driver.

I have seen quite a few accident online which have 'similar' signature (bouncing left/right) prior the crash.
The most common comments from denizen is how bad the driver is.
I was thinking its the electronic that somehow surprises the driver,
with the driver trying hard to 'correct or over-correct' the unexpected steering, which resulted in the sorry state.

In summary, is the electronic helping,
esp for experience driver with limited exposure to electronic ?

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EivFh-URPlM"]Original footage. Singapore Lexus LFA Crash - YouTube[/ame]

[ZionsWrath]

How much of your driving is in a real wheel drive car?

That "bouncing left right" manner is known as a tank slapper and has existed since cars were invented. Heck, even my cat does it on tile floors.

While I do agree in certain situations nannies can be a hindrance, what you are describing is not that.

[Mr.ac]

No matter how much electronics help, it can't do jack crap once tires loose grip.
That video example is just driver error. Panic set in after a failed attempt to drift or aka the Scandinavian flick. Also he just didn't have enough road.

[ZionsWrath]

He didn't flick it. It was a straight road. He just couldn't handle to power. Wheel spin and he shit the bed.

Originally Posted by Mr.ac

No matter how much electronics help, it can't do jack crap once tires loose grip.
That video example is just driver error. Panic set in after a failed attempt to drift or aka the Scandinavian flick. Also he just didn't have enough road.

[krayzie]

The ESP/VSC usually kicks in way faster than you even start to correct the steering. There were times (i.e. black ice or overly wet situations with ice tires) where the car was starting to drift out of line to the point the electronics can no longer save the car, and that's when I will apply corrective steering to save it myself.

The only time the electronics would kick in as a surprise would be for example mid corner, the ESP/VSC cuts power and causes mild understeer.

[Spuds]

Are you on stock tires? What mode was VSC/TC in?

[wbradley]

Regards to the driver of the LFA, what a loser!

People who have access to large amounts of money do not necessarily have the intelligence of whomever actually acquired the money to begin with.

[Mr.ac]

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

He didn't flick it. It was a straight road. He just couldn't handle to power. Wheel spin and he shit the bed.

I didn't see any wheel spin due to power. The road had a long curve up ahead. Thus my idea oh him trying to drift

[cjd]

The only time I've experienced the electronic aids making things worse is when I was WAY past control of the car already and it shifted the weight just enough...

I've had occasions where the car unexpectedly loses traction (in the rain taking a turn) and, while they're intrusive/annoying, I have found them to be decent.

I agree with the suggestion above that something else is happening here, and it's not the electronic nannies at all.

[ermax]

I have to agree that after many many years of driving RWD cars without aids the VSC feels odd to me. I will sense something out of sorts and the VSC reacts way faster than I do but my brain has already started processing what is needed to correct and by the time my body reacts it’s too late and the car has already solved the problem and I actually just create a new problem. The fix for me is to turn off the aids every time I jump in the car with the exception of rain, at least until I get tires that aren’t death traps. I’ve never had problems for n the rain although I’ve run nothing but ultra high performance romance tires since 1996. The car I got came with some 600tw trash.

As for the LFA in the video it seems cut and dry to me that it snapped on a shift. Listen closely. I don’t think he was trying to drift. Probably had the aids off and didn’t expect it to snap and overreacted.

[Ernest72]

Originally Posted by ermax

I have to agree that after many many years of driving RWD cars without aids the VSC feels odd to me. I will sense something out of sorts and the VSC reacts way faster than I do but my brain has already started processing what is needed to correct and by the time my body reacts it’s too late and the car has already solved the problem and I actually just create a new problem. The fix for me is to turn off the aids every time I jump in the car with the exception of rain, at least until I get tires that aren’t death traps. I’ve never had problems for n the rain although I’ve run nothing but ultra high performance romance tires since 1996. The car I got came with some 600tw trash.

As for the LFA in the video it seems cut and dry to me that it snapped on a shift. Listen closely. I don’t think he was trying to drift. Probably had the aids off and didn’t expect it to snap and overreacted.

I agree. Youtube is filled with these things. Too much torque, the tires lose grip, car drifts, inexperienced driver overreacts and trouble ensues, unless there is plenty of space. I mean if the BRZ with a measly 151 torque can spin, imagine double that or even more torque. Recipe for disaster with inexperienced drivers.

[guybo]

Originally Posted by redwine

Hi,

Just want to get some opinions.

Was taking a left corner on my BRZ when the car suddenly steer more towards left in a 'floating manner'.
(i suppose the torque vectoring kicks in). Est 60m/hr wet surface.

You hydroplaned. Electronic aids can't help that, but you slowed down enough that you got grip again and saved it. I don't think this car does torque vectoring, it has a TORSEN diff.

IMHO electronic aids are awesome and save accidents every day. The TC and SC on this car is excellent and not rough or intrusive. I had a GenCoupe that had awful SC and TC that would make the car buck. The FRS is subtle and a few times has saved me from myself.

[why?]

electronic aids help. Just go look at the first couple of months this car was out, every accident thread was about some moron who had never driven rear wheel drive and the first thing they did was turn off all the aids and 5 minutes later wrecked the car.

[Rai-zero]

I’ve owned S2000 which had much shorter wheelbase and no traction or stability control. The main issue was in wet-wet conditions and especially with somewhat used tires. I never spun but had a few fishtail events like the first post except didn’t lose control, but got my attention and usually I’d drive like a granny in a Prius in those conditions.

With the BRZ main complaint is the traction control which can cut power on fast up shifts on broken roads maybe not pristine roads. It’s not bad but it’s not great, also I had one episode where I made a low speed sharp right in second gear too quick and instead of going into any oversteer it just killed the slip/engine power. It was kind of meh and I’d think that was too intrusive heavy handed but otherwise it’s been fine. I don’t really drive like a madman in the rain but I can feel it is a lot more composed than my S2000. I’m in a tS with the good tires so can’t say what it’s like on Primacy rubber although on test drives with used Primacy, I did notice more intervention even on dry pavements while taking a quick acceleration turn but could have been worn rubber as well as the tire compound. I’d strongly recommend sticky tires for the BRZ.