COVID Developments and News

[86TOYO2k17]

Originally Posted by weederr33

From a moral standpoint, is it more or less moral to stand your ground and respect your body, or to pay respect to others around you?

Originally Posted by wbradley

In answer to your paradoxical question, the unvaccinated must vaccinate to protect themselves and the healthcare system in their community as well. Also, hopefully to curb the rate of potential harmful mutation from ocurring.
Or it's all a conspiracy and you got a glimpse thru the key hole.

Assuming you’re saying respecting others is getting the vaccine.
So is the vaccine to protect yourself or to protect others from you? Isn’t the vaccine supposed to protect you from others? In which case it’s not your job to protect me from me. So, get the vaccine and then stop worrying about what others do? Or does the vaccine not have very high success rates and so you need to get it not for yourself but for others?

As far as the mutation argument.

https://www.npr.org/2021/02/09/96570...vid-19-mutants

Here is an article pre covid in 2018 about vaccines in general.
https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-v...olve-20180510/

[Capt Spaulding]

Originally Posted by weederr33

From a moral standpoint, is it more or less moral to stand your ground and respect your body, or to pay respect to others around you?

Are these mutually exclusive? If so, how? And why?

[86TOYO2k17]

I think the speed in which not only one but multiple vaccines have come out, and the effectiveness of the vaccines is astonishing, one of the greatest achievements so far in the 21st century. I have encouraged anyone who wants to get it to get it. I have even encouraged individuals in high risk groups who don’t want to get it, to do further research on pros/cons and reconsider.

I think vaccines in general are great my kids (2/3) have both gotten 20+ vaccines and I’m sure I’ve had a similar number.

The people that are really anti-vax are against any/all vaccines and are in large nut jobs. Unfortunately anyone who is even skeptical about covid vaccine or isn’t a huge proponent for it, or getting the vaccine themselves are grouped in the anti-vax category when 95%+ aren’t against vaccines in general.

The main arguments for vaccine are
Protect others - the vaccine has shown to be effective, so protect yourself from others. You have the tools.

Protect yourself- not your job to protect me from me, and you have the tools to protect yourself from me.

Mutations - vaccines in general can also cause mutations to occur I don’t see much compelling data showing the rate of mutation would significantly decrease if everyone was vaxxed.

Impact to medical field/hospitals - still undecided my stance on this and what personal obligations we have to not impact hospitals and use medical resources, if we have an obligation, it should be equally applied (cigarettes, obesity etc…)

Based on this I do not believe in mandates, or that one’s ability to provide for themselves and their family should be determined based on vaccine status.

I hope everyone in the world has easy access to the vaccine if they want, i hope people educate themselves to determine the best course of action for themselves. But I do not believe we have a moral responsibility to get vaccinated if it primarily only effects yourself.

[wbradley]

86TOYO2K17, I'd say get the vax to protect yourself, which will in turn protect others by not overloading the local healthcare system. It will also help avoid lockdown type situations, which hurt businesses potentially crashing the economy. And lastly, it will provide the virus one less host to give rise to variants which can result in more harm.

You may not be a threat to most vaccinated people but things do get back to the sick and elderly. Maybe not as easy as the first and 2nd waves but there should be zero tolerance. Just as there should be zero tolerance for unvaccinated healthcare workers. Bad enough vaccinated ones are frequently completely asymptomatic which IMO indicates all workers with longterm care homes should be tested regularly still and never stop using masks.

You live in this world, so how do you view people around you? Do you feel resentful that there is a push to have you take this vaccine? Or do you feel that you will always choose to do what's best for society, even if there is possible short term pain (side effects) and a miniscule but potentially real mortal risk.

Or, do you feel there is high risk of harm to yourself or possible malevolent intentions behind vaccination.

These are the questions you can ask yourself. All of these points of view are real. Not all are rational, sadly.

[Lantanafrs2]

https://samsung.tribunecontentagency...n-of-covid-19/

[Capt Spaulding]

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17

Mutations - vaccines in general can also cause mutations to occur I don’t see much compelling data showing the rate of mutation would significantly decrease if everyone was vaxxed.

I disagree. First, I have not seen evidence that vaccines "cause" mutations. They do not directly change the genome of the virus that I've heard. If you have evidence to the contrary I'm all ears. They do offer an opportunity for mutations that do occur to crowd out existing strains if the newcomer is better suited to the new environment. If that newcomer has other attributes that make is more virulent it may be more successful/dangerous than its predecessor. That does not mean the mutation would not have come along anyway. And I don't see a causal linkage.

Second, I'm not sure how you reach the conclusion that universal vaccination would not slow the rate of mutation. Every new infection is an opportunity for the virus to mutate. If you reduce the number of new infections, you reduce opportunities for mutation. If you reduce new infections to near zero, there will be far fewer opportunities for mutation and fewer mutations as a result.

[86TOYO2k17]

Originally Posted by Capt Spaulding

I disagree. First, I have not seen evidence that vaccines "cause" mutations. They do not directly change the genome of the virus that I've heard. If you have evidence to the contrary I'm all ears. They do offer an opportunity for mutations that do occur to crowd out existing strains if the newcomer is better suited to the new environment. If that newcomer has other attributes that make is more virulent it may be more successful/dangerous than its predecessor. That does not mean the mutation would not have come along anyway. And I don't see a causal linkage.

Second, I'm not sure how you reach the conclusion that universal vaccination would not slow the rate of mutation. Every new infection is an opportunity for the virus to mutate. If you reduce the number of new infections, you reduce opportunities for mutation. If you reduce new infections to near zero, there will be far fewer opportunities for mutation and fewer mutations as a result.

I posted two links/sources in an above post. About virus mutations and vaccines. One specifically pre dating covid.

I’m not saying this an argument to persuade people to not get vaccinated, rather that the argument to get vaccinated because of slowing/stopping mutations doesn’t seem like the rate it would slow would be substantial enough.

You see mutations to medication/treatments all the time in bacteria as well as viruses.

People who are vaccinated pose little threat/risk to themselves as the risk of contraction is reduced although not absent, but the risk of symptoms/complications is greatly diminished. Essentially it is good protection and defense to protect yourself. I would say good enough to no longer have much concern for covid for yourself.

However it seems people can still get it and these people that get it can still mutate it possible at a higher rate, as well as most likely will have little to no symptoms, won’t be aware they have it, won’t be taking extra precautions and measures like quarantine, masks, social distancing etc… and can essentially become super spreaders. However the main people they are a threat to is non vaccinated, not that they can’t/won’t spread to vaccinated but the vaccinated pose little risk if infected.

No I’m not saying this is yet another reason to convince people to not get vaccinated but again an argument against people saying why it’s our moral obligation to get vaccinated.

Because of all this I still think it primarily comes down to, get vaccinated to protect yourself, but it ain’t your job to protect me from me. I don’t think the merits or relevance of the other arguments are great enough to make it a mandate/law/moral obligation.

[Capt Spaulding]

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17

I posted two links/sources in an above post. About virus mutations and vaccines. One specifically pre dating covid.

I’m not saying this an argument to persuade people to not get vaccinated, rather that the argument to get vaccinated because of slowing/stopping mutations doesn’t seem like the rate it would slow would be substantial enough.

You see mutations to medication/treatments all the time in bacteria as well as viruses.

People who are vaccinated pose little threat/risk to themselves as the risk of contraction is reduced although not absent, but the risk of symptoms/complications is greatly diminished. Essentially it is good protection and defense to protect yourself. I would say good enough to no longer have much concern for covid for yourself.

However it seems people can still get it and these people that get it can still mutate it possible at a higher rate, as well as most likely will have little to no symptoms, won’t be aware they have it, won’t be taking extra precautions and measures like quarantine, masks, social distancing etc… and can essentially become super spreaders. However the main people they are a threat to is non vaccinated, not that they can’t/won’t spread to vaccinated but the vaccinated pose little risk if infected.

No I’m not saying this is yet another reason to convince people to not get vaccinated but again an argument against people saying why it’s our moral obligation to get vaccinated.

Because of all this I still think it primarily comes down to, get vaccinated to protect yourself, but it ain’t your job to protect me from me. I don’t think the merits or relevance of the other arguments are great enough to make it a mandate/law/moral obligation.

I read the material behind the links you posted. In a nutshell they were very close to what I stated. Vaccines can clear a path for new mutations to flourish, but they do not in and of themselves CAUSE mutations. And speculation that this leads to more mutations is just that - speculation.

Much of the rest of the above is a rehash of the tired tropes that have filled these threads since the beginning.

I posted the following several days ago. It is as relevant now as it was then.

The opposition to vaccines is based a series of faulty premises which wind up being woven into unsound arguments. Going through each post and playing liars Whack-A-Mole with each gets really tedious. So think about it this way. The vaccines are not perfect. But should we allow the perfect to be the enemy of the very good?

Let’s say a vaccine is 90% effective. If you take 1000 unvaccinated people and expose them to a sufficient quantity of virus that all will get sick, we have 1000 cases of virus. Some may be asymptomatic but all will be contagious and capable of spreading virus to others.

Now, suppose we fully vaccinate all 1000 before their exposure. If the vaccine in 90% effective, 100 will still get sick. And those 100 will still be contagious. But, 900 of the 1000 will be neither.

There are people, on and off this board who want us to focus on the 100 and ignore the rest. They will tell us that we can still get sick even if we are vaccinated. They will tell us we can still spread the virus even if we are vaccinated. Both have a [tiny] element of truth to them But both are grossly misleading. Both are deliberate attempts to mislead. Both are lies.

And finally, you don't vaccinate just to protect you. It's not about protecting you from you. If you want to suicide, OK. No, for the reasons I just articulated, you vaccinate to protect others FROM you.

[dpfarr]

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17

1.

However it seems people can still get it and these people that get it can still mutate it possible at a higher rate, as well as most likely will have little to no symptoms, won’t be aware they have it, won’t be taking extra precautions and measures like quarantine, masks, social distancing etc… and can essentially become super spreaders. However the main people they are a threat to is non vaccinated, not that they can’t/won’t spread to vaccinated but the vaccinated pose little risk if infected.

2.

Because of all this I still think it primarily comes down to, get vaccinated to protect yourself, but it ain’t your job to protect me from me. I don’t think the merits or relevance of the other arguments are great enough to make it a mandate/law/moral obligation.

1.
As a feature of the Delta variant, it is better at replicating and thus viral loads in individual and transmission is greater. Consider the amount of vital capsids created in a vaccinated individual and not. Even if the rate of mutation for vaccinated individuals is higher (it isn’t), that is significantly displaced by the size of viral particles in the unvaccinated.

2.
Vaccination programs are to achieve herd immunity. Reduce potential vectors to inhibit virus transmission.

[86TOYO2k17]

Originally Posted by Capt Spaulding

I read the material behind the links you posted. In a nutshell they were very close to what I stated. Vaccines can clear a path for new mutations to flourish, but they do not in and of themselves CAUSE mutations. And speculation that this leads to more mutations is just that - speculation.

Much of the rest of the above is a rehash of the tired tropes that have filled these threads since the beginning.

I posted the following several days ago. It is as relevant now as it was then.




And finally, you don't vaccinate just to protect you. It's not about protecting you from you. If you want to suicide, OK. No, for the reasons I just articulated, you vaccinate to protect others FROM you.

The problem is you keep viewing it as an opposition against the vaccine.
Rather then what is proper justification to make it a law.

If the vaccine works which it seems to work very well at almost eliminating the risk of a vaccinated individual having complications from covid. Then you have the tools to protect yourself from me. Or are we arguing the effectiveness of the vaccine and you think it’s a lot less effective then i do?

I don’t think those numbers you cited in your example are accurate either. you have link to source?

[Lantanafrs2]

The behavior on this thread by strong pro vaxxers is childish. Try being a power of example

[wbradley]

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17

Because of all this I still think it primarily comes down to, get vaccinated to protect yourself, but it ain’t your job to protect me from me. I don’t think the merits or relevance of the other arguments are great enough to make it a mandate/law/moral obligation.

When you drive like an asshole on the freeway you and other people get hurt.
Biggest asshole is zero vaccination, minimal to no precautions
Second biggest is vaccinated person that feels so confident in their health that they will unmask and spit in everyone's mouth they come into contact with.

PS- as long as you don't own your own hospital, you don't really have.the moral right to get infected if you choose to do so. That's a very self-centered form of self determination. I couldn't ever defend that position.

[86TOYO2k17]

Originally Posted by wbradley

When you drive like an asshole on the freeway you and other people get hurt.
Biggest asshole is zero vaccination, minimal to no precautions
Second biggest is vaccinated person that feels so confident in their health that they will unmask and spit in everyone's mouth they come into contact with.

PS- as long as you don't own your own hospital, you don't really have.the moral right to get infected if you choose to do so. That's a very self-centered form of self determination. I couldn't ever defend that position.

Not sure what driving on the freeway has to do with getting vaccinated.

Don’t think anyone is saying to deliberately go and try to get infected.

Really not sure the point of this post.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

The behavior on this thread by strong pro vaxxers is childish. Try being a power of example

Already tried it. Being a rational reasonable adult is no fun.

Where do you want us petulant children to go?