Engine idle chirping (cricket) noise poll.

[Pascal_TTH]

Originally Posted by Fenrir

Yup, ethanol in the fuel does strange things. North America has a bunch of garbage in the fuel that other countries don't.

I read a french GT86/BRZ forum about this issue. There are two guys with the cricket in the engine. They solve it using SP 98, before, they were using SP 95. In France and Belgium, car's manuel tells 98RON only !

Here is what is written in the BRZ gas trap :


The french GT86 manual tells that the car can use SP95 and SP95E10 (with ethanol) but performances will be lower and engine can do *unexpect noise*.

Of course, I fully understand this kind of gas (SP 95 or SP 98) is not aviable in USA. So it won't help a lot but it explain why there not or far less complains from EU users. In Belgium, Germany, Luxembourg, France and Netherlands SP 98 (pure gas) is really common. I don't know for other EU countries.

My 2 cents from Belgium !

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by Fenrir

Yup, ethanol in the fuel does strange things. North America has a bunch of garbage in the fuel that other countries don't.

Apparently you don't even read this thread. There are people in Canada, using ethanol-free Shell 100% of the time, with chirp. It just takes longer to develop.

[Pascal_TTH]

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

Apparently you don't even read this thread. There are people in Canada, using ethanol-free Shell 100% of the time, with chirp. It just takes longer to develop.

Canada have SP 98 gas ? I didn't remember or know, so just a simple question. BTW, the french forum also speaks about 0w20 oil for the engine witch is the right one. Some older documents tells 5w20 or so and it seems to also impact the cricket. One of the guy have 5w20. He remplaces with 0w20 and starts to run with SP98. Thus cricket went out.

That's what I learn form french topics/forums.

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by Pascal_TTH

Canada have SP 98 gas ? I didn't remember or know, so just a simple question. BTW, the french forum also speaks about 0w20 oil for the engine witch is the right one. Some older documents tells 5w20 or so and it seems to also impact the cricket. One of the guy have 5w20. He remplaces with 0w20 and starts to run with SP98. Thus cricket went out.

That's what I learn form french topics/forums.

SP98=RON 98 ~ AKI 93-94. Absolutely available in Canada, sometimes from Shell, but I'm not entirely sure it's still ethanol-free, I think most 94 AKI gas in Canada has ethanol in it. The 91 AKI (SP95 in France) Shell in Canada is 100% ethanol free.

I'm not sure what oil grade has to do with HPFP.

But anyway, thanks for relaying what people are saying on French/Belgian forums.

[Fenrir]

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

Apparently you don't even read this thread. There are people in Canada, using ethanol-free Shell 100% of the time, with chirp. It just takes longer to develop.

No need to be rude. I've been following this thread since it was started from a discussion in another thread.

Ethanol isn't the only factor here. EPA requirements in the US call for different detergents and additives to be added to the fuel, and as is the nature of things, causes the Canadian fuel to be virtually identical (minus the ethanol, of course). While it's reasonable to assume that the ethanol expedites the situation, it's not the entire underlying cause. Should have clarified in my post.

[russv]

I would really like to get a solid answer from Toyota/Subaru on what really causes the chirping noise. There is some indication it is a manufacturing defect and yet many posters have said that a change in gas brand, octane rating, ethanol vs non-ethanol can affect the noise. For my car I noticed a brief chirping on my first tank of gas, then no chirping for 5 months, then after a 3 hour drive in the mountains the chirp was in full song, at which point I took it to the dealer where they listened and ordered a new fuel pump. In the 2 months that I waited for the new pump I didn't have one chirp. No comprende!

[Fenrir]

Originally Posted by russv

I would really like to get a solid answer from Toyota/Subaru on what really causes the chirping noise. There is some indication it is a manufacturing defect and yet many posters have said that a change in gas brand, octane rating, ethanol vs non-ethanol can affect the noise. For my car I noticed a brief chirping on my first tank of gas, then no chirping for 5 months, then after a 3 hour drive in the mountains the chirp was in full song, at which point I took it to the dealer where they listened and ordered a new fuel pump. In the 2 months that I waited for the new pump I didn't have one chirp. No comprende!

The Subaru TSB explains what causes the chirping noise.

[dawnst3ar]

You sure you aren't confusing that with the Mazda manual?

[russv]

The Subaru TSB is a bit ambiguous in that on one hand that "it is the result of the positioning of the plunger stopper inside the high pressure fuel pump", but then continues on to say "Some may have a plunger stopper position that when combined with certain fuel temperatures or fuel formations, may result in aeration....causing this sound..." With my car I consistently used Chevron 91 and all through the hot summer no chirp. But one 3 hour drive in the mountains in relatively cool November and it sings like a sparrow. No clear answer from my perspective.

[Fenrir]

Originally Posted by dawnst3ar

You sure you aren't confusing that with the Mazda manual?

Quite sure, actually. But it's good to know you've run out of legitimate arguments and have to resort to petty personal attacks to feel good about yourself.

Originally Posted by russv

The Subaru TSB is a bit ambiguous in that on one hand that "it is the result of the positioning of the plunger stopper inside the high pressure fuel pump", but then continues on to say "Some may have a plunger stopper position that when combined with certain fuel temperatures or fuel formations, may result in aeration....causing this sound..." With my car I consistently used Chevron 91 and all through the hot summer no chirp. But one 3 hour drive in the mountains in relatively cool November and it sings like a sparrow. No clear answer from my perspective.

Ah, fair enough. I misunderstood your question, then. I thought you were looking for what was making the sound in the first place. My mistake!

The wording the Subaru TSB is mixed with legal jargon to avoid using absolutes. "May" and "some" are the key words in those statements. The conditions are more related to engine temp than outdoor temp. Mine did it on the way to work this morning after a spirited jaunt through some twisty back-roads, and it's 12° F outside. Earlier last year, I would drive in 104° F weather with nary a chirp to be heard.

I had a decent write up at one point I found elsewhere regarding this noise in similar DI systems and what it was in the fuel that was causing it, but can't seem to find it now. It was a combination of the detergents and other emissions additives used. I'll keep digging, though.

[russv]

Originally Posted by Fenrir

Quite sure, actually. But it's good to know you've run out of legitimate arguments and have to resort to petty personal attacks to feel good about yourself.



Ah, fair enough. I misunderstood your question, then. I thought you were looking for what was making the sound in the first place. My mistake!

The wording the Subaru TSB is mixed with legal jargon to avoid using absolutes. "May" and "some" are the key words in those statements. The conditions are more related to engine temp than outdoor temp. Mine did it on the way to work this morning after a spirited jaunt through some twisty back-roads, and it's 12° F outside. Earlier last year, I would drive in 104° F weather with nary a chirp to be heard.

I had a decent write up at one point I found elsewhere regarding this noise in similar DI systems and what it was in the fuel that was causing it, but can't seem to find it now. It was a combination of the detergents and other emissions additives used. I'll keep digging, though.

After thinking about this issue for a bit I'm just wondering if it isn't a manufacturing tolerance variability problem. I would imagine the parts inside the fuel pump are designed with fairly low tolerances such that any small variance in those tolerances would cause the noise. Noting that the fuel pump is situated close to the engine and the resultant heat proximity as well as some fuel differences could all be the culprits. And yes, I 'm sure their lawyers wrote the TSB as the terms "may" and "some" are certain red flags.

[dgtlmn]

Well...3 months, 4 maybe? after the fix the crickets are back!

[Fenrir]

Originally Posted by russv

After thinking about this issue for a bit I'm just wondering if it isn't a manufacturing tolerance variability problem. I would imagine the parts inside the fuel pump are designed with fairly low tolerances such that any small variance in those tolerances would cause the noise. Noting that the fuel pump is situated close to the engine and the resultant heat proximity as well as some fuel differences could all be the culprits. And yes, I 'm sure their lawyers wrote the TSB as the terms "may" and "some" are certain red flags.

It's possible, but considering many other DI systems exhibit the same sound, I'd say it's unlikely. One of the biggest differences with this car I've noticed is how little sound deadening there is in the engine bay, which I'm sure contributes to how much more noticeable the noise is.

[russv]

I had DI on my 2 Mini Coopers-the DI made the engines sound like a diesel. My wifes' Lexus IS 250 has DI but is very quiet (sound deadening to the max). My concern about DI is that the fuel pumps run such high pressures ,and many high pressure fuel pumps have failed in Mini Coopers, BMW's, VW's, and Audi's. Hence my worry about the chirping being a possible indicator of future failures. I bailed on my Mini's before the warranties were up because of this.