Heel Toe Around Town?

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by SkullWorks

No you are trolling, you either

1. missed the whole context

2. cant heel toe and are trying to justify that

3. are doing a horrible job of playing devil's advocate.


Let's just say you are doing 67mph on the freeway in 6th gear and you come around a bend and notice that traffic is piling up, so you get on the brakes fairly hard, slowing down to about 45, now at 45 you are in the wrong gear and since you (can't won't or don't ) heel toe you are now in the wrong gear and full of shit,

Thanks for playing.

or you can just downshift and nothing will happen. the only reason you need to heel-toe is because you are using 100% of your traction braking and cornering and you are concerned that the engine braking is going to upset the car. if you are using 100% of your traction on a crowded public highway, youre doing it wrong.

i didnt miss the context, i know how to heel-toe, and im not even playing devils advocate. needing to heel toe is needing to downshift but needing to down shift isnt needing to heel toe.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Bullnettles

Dammit, stole my thunder! :happy0180: Honestly, though, I don't get where these guys are coming from saying it's not beneficial. I'm dumbfounded.

well, i never said its not beneficial so i can see where you would be dumbfounded.

[Bullnettles]

Originally Posted by fatoni

or you can just downshift and nothing will happen.

True, but are you going to rev match to do it? If you heel-toe, you're saving time.

Originally Posted by fatoni

the only reason you need to heel-toe is because you are using 100% of your traction braking and cornering and you are concerned that the engine braking is going to upset the car. if you are using 100% of your traction on a crowded public highway, youre doing it wrong.

Engine braking is an acceptable method to reduce speed. I've used heel-toeing in moderate traffic, if not for practice, then to help slow my car a bit. Nothing wrong with doing it to do it.

Originally Posted by fatoni

needing to heel toe is needing to downshift but needing to down shift isnt needing to heel toe.

This I agree with, but you will be in better control of your car if you do heel-toe since you are constantly in the correct gear for power, should you need it. Do you agree?

[Bullnettles]

Originally Posted by fatoni

well, i never said its not beneficial so i can see where you would be dumbfounded.

Then my comment wasn't pointed toward you. More towards this guy. No need to be a ****.

Originally Posted by Ryeong86

I don't heel and toe in around the town driving, it's pretty pointless.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Bullnettles

True, but are you going to rev match to do it? If you heel-toe, you're saving time.



Engine braking is an acceptable method to reduce speed. I've used heel-toeing in moderate traffic, if not for practice, then to help slow my car a bit. Nothing wrong with doing it to do it.



This I agree with, but you will be in better control of your car if you do heel-toe since you are constantly in the correct gear for power, should you need it. Do you agree?

you dont need to rev match unless you feel you are threshold braking or using all of your grip cornering but im not in disagreement. all i was saying is that using the argument that being in the right gear is important isnt really supporting the need to heel toe. i often do it casually as it doesnt really have a downside. im just saying its pretty much never mandated on public roads.

Originally Posted by Bullnettles

Then my comment wasn't pointed toward you. More towards this guy. No need to be a ****.

okay. i just assumed that since you quoted a post that was quoting me that was the intent. no harm done.

[Ryeong86]

Originally Posted by Bullnettles

Then my comment wasn't pointed toward you. More towards this guy. No need to be a ****.

Uhhh what? My comment made perfect sense.... that's why no one really argued or trolled me. I do rev match gears and when spirited driving on an off ramp I heel and toe. Around town, I drive.... normally????.....

No need for everyone's panties to get into a bunch.... If you enjoy doing it, go for it... if not, no one is forcing you. Do what you will and what puts a smile on your face.

[SubieNate]

Not rev matching requires you to slip the clutch quite a bit, or be jerky. If we're talking about reducing wear on the clutch that is the single worst option.

[SkullWorks]

Originally Posted by fatoni

you dont need to rev match unless you feel you are threshold braking or using all of your grip cornering but im not in disagreement. all i was saying is that using the argument that being in the right gear is important isnt really supporting the need to heel toe. i often do it casually as it doesnt really have a downside. im just saying its pretty much never mandated on public roads.

okay. i just assumed that since you quoted a post that was quoting me that was the intent. no harm done.

OK now atleast we understand what you are missing,

If you choose not to rev match it adds wear to your clutch, I guess we were all having this conversation assuming you had an understanding of WHY we were having this discussion since the wear on the clutch has been brought up and discussed, so you have now been informed DIRECTLY and can quit claiming there is NO benefit, because the benefit is less wear and tear on the clutch/flywheel/pressure plate

Do you start in second gear "because it isn't mandated that you don't?"

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by fatoni

you dont need to rev match unless you feel you are threshold braking or using all of your grip cornering but im not in disagreement. all i was saying is that using the argument that being in the right gear is important isnt really supporting the need to heel toe. i often do it casually as it doesnt really have a downside. im just saying its pretty much never mandated on public roads.

wut?

So when you drop a gear you let the car jerk till the engine matches the transmission... I feel sorry for your car and your passengers.

[DM7]

Originally Posted by fatoni

you dont need to rev match unless you feel you are threshold braking or using all of your grip cornering but im not in disagreement. all i was saying is that using the argument that being in the right gear is important isnt really supporting the need to heel toe. i often do it casually as it doesnt really have a downside. im just saying its pretty much never mandated on public roads.

fatoni makes a very good point here.

If you have the brakes applied and want to be in the correct gear approaching a corner or stop, down shifting is required.

The two ways you can down shift with the brakes applied:
1. Release the clutch pedal slowly without rev matching the engine.
2. Rev match the engine with the clutch in neutral. (Heel Toe)

Both of these techniques will put you in your desired gear.

1.
Using the clutch to match the engine speed to the transmission speed will cause engine braking. If the clutch pedal is release rapidly, the engine braking effect could lock the drive wheels. If the clutch pedal is release carefully, the balance of the car can be maintained.

2.
Heel toe down shifts prevents you from upsetting the balance of the car during braking.

Fatoni is right, being in the correct gear is not the main reason to heel toe down shift. Maintaining the balance of the car during braking and down shifting is why you would choose to heel toe.

I choose to always heel toe when I drive because I feel it is the most effective method I can use to brake and down shift in a smooth and controlled manner.

[SubieNate]

Originally Posted by DM7

fatoni makes a very good point here.

If you have the brakes applied and want to be in the correct gear approaching a corner or stop, down shifting is required.

The two ways you can down shift with the brakes applied:
1. Release the clutch pedal slowly without rev matching the engine.
2. Rev match the engine with the clutch in neutral. (Heel Toe)

Both of these techniques will put you in your desired gear.

1.
Using the clutch to match the engine speed to the transmission speed will cause engine braking. If the clutch pedal is release rapidly, the engine braking effect could lock the drive wheels. If the clutch pedal is release carefully, the balance of the car can be maintained, and clutch wear increased significantly.

2.
Heel toe down shifts prevents you from upsetting the balance of the car during braking.

Fatoni is right, being in the correct gear is not the main reason to heel toe down shift. Maintaining the balance of the car during braking and down shifting is why you would choose to heel toe.

I choose to always heel toe when I drive because I feel it is the most effective method I can use to brake and down shift in a smooth and controlled manner.

Fixed that for ya.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by SkullWorks

OK now atleast we understand what you are missing,

If you choose not to rev match it adds wear to your clutch, I guess we were all having this conversation assuming you had an understanding of WHY we were having this discussion since the wear on the clutch has been brought up and discussed, so you have now been informed DIRECTLY and can quit claiming there is NO benefit, because the benefit is less wear and tear on the clutch/flywheel/pressure plate

Do you start in second gear "because it isn't mandated that you don't?"

your arguments are kinda pointed in the same direction but not very cohesive and not really even against what i am saying. wear on a clutch happens. do you not take your car to redline? it significantly increases wear to the engine. now you have been informed directly. im pretty sure clutches wear due to force more than due to speed so there is going to be significant wear upshifting on the throttle than downshifting off of it. do you rev match on upshifts too?

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

wut?

So when you drop a gear you let the car jerk till the engine matches the transmission... I feel sorry for your car and your passengers.

under normal driving (which is what this thread is about), the engine speed between gears is small. at these speeds there isnt really a discernable between the stress of an upshift and downshift. so unless you are rev matching your upshifts you should probably save at leas half of that pitty for your car and its passengers.

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by fatoni

your arguments are kinda pointed in the same direction but not very cohesive and not really even against what i am saying. wear on a clutch happens. do you not take your car to redline? it significantly increases wear to the engine. now you have been informed directly. im pretty sure clutches wear due to force more than due to speed so there is going to be significant wear upshifting on the throttle than downshifting off of it. do you rev match on upshifts too?

under normal driving (which is what this thread is about), the engine speed between gears is small. at these speeds there isnt really a discernable between the stress of an upshift and downshift. so unless you are rev matching your upshifts you should probably save at leas half of that pitty for your car and its passengers.

Do you even drive manual??? If a clutch is fully engaged the wear on it is nill since the friction force is at it's maximum and both the transmission and the engine are at the same speed...

When you upshift you don't "rev match", the engine will drop rpms the moment you release the clutch which automatically compensates for the RPM difference between gears, that's why you release the throttle when you upshift... when you downshift without tapping the throttle to compensate for the difference in RPM's when you drop a gear the engine will most likely fall to idle before you re-engage the clutch causing a big difference between engine RPM and the transmission gear

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by fatoni

your arguments are kinda pointed in the same direction but not very cohesive and not really even against what i am saying. wear on a clutch happens. do you not take your car to redline? it significantly increases wear to the engine. now you have been informed directly. im pretty sure clutches wear due to force more than due to speed so there is going to be significant wear upshifting on the throttle than downshifting off of it. do you rev match on upshifts too?

under normal driving (which is what this thread is about), the engine speed between gears is small. at these speeds there isnt really a discernable between the stress of an upshift and downshift. so unless you are rev matching your upshifts you should probably save at leas half of that pitty for your car and its passengers.

Um what? Normally I can follow what you're saying, but you lost me here fatoni.

Everyone I know rev-matches on upshifts (i.e., releases the throttle between upshifts) unless they're deliberately powershifting/FFS. The reason you release the throttle between upshifts is to match revs for the next gear.