CSG and RCE tag-team suspension Q&A thread! Ask us anything!

[SubieNate]

Originally Posted by jarednoel

Thank you for such a quick response! I'm sorry that I forgot to add in that I will not be seeing any track time soon, but will be in the future. As of now, I'm currently running canyons around my area and that's where I need the reliability of a good coilover. I've heard that the new Speed by Design coilover was built similar to the ST coils, but is not as durable as the Godspeed Mono RS coilover. Just wanted your guys' input!

Thanks again in advance!

Coilovers companies will tell you lots of things. What it really boils down to is do they really know how to make a proper damper (especially an adjustable one) and do they know how to tune that damper and choose proper spring rates for the chassis they're building coilovers for. My suspicion is that the number of companies that can truely answer yes to both of those questions is quite small.

Cheers
Nathan

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by SubieNate

Coilovers companies will tell you lots of things. What it really boils down to is do they really know how to make a proper damper (especially an adjustable one) and do they know how to tune that damper and choose proper spring rates for the chassis they're building coilovers for. My suspicion is that the number of companies that can truely answer yes to both of those questions is quite small.

Cheers
Nathan

So much this, especially with coilovers since most people it's not as easy to understand as "adds 15 hp."

I admit it's tough for someone like myself on this side of things to rein in the enthusiasm for our own parts. I'm a tech person first though and if I'm plugging RCE parts it's because I really like them and believe that they're good shit.

A lot of the stuff that matters is inside the assembly and shock dynos are difficult to understand and/or unavailable for most coilovers....so many companies can and do say pretty much anything short of claiming that the coilovers will make you a really good sandwich.

And a lot of people don't have first hand experience with the good stuff, so they might not know what they're missing out on. They may go on to write glowing reviews of products that really aren't that great, but they did just spend a grand and felt something stiffer than stock.

One tip....any time you see "32 Ways of Dampening Adjustability" as the main feature....run.

NOTE: I've written a few press releases or product descriptions for our RCE suspension parts over the years. I get excited. I helped design this stuff and I feel strongly about the parts we offer. But I try not to go overboard. We try to focus on specs rather than hyperbole and we will never claim one product is the best at everything (which is one big reason why we do not only sell RCE parts). Also, being more of a tech person than a marketing person, I tend to focus on what's really important and explain the thought processes behind the product rather than some of the "features" you see listed in other brands marketing fluff.

Short version...when in doubt, ask for explanations.

- Andy

[cdrazic93]

Ayye good guy Andy

[cdrazic93]

Originally Posted by jarednoel

Thank you for such a quick response! I'm sorry that I forgot to add in that I will not be seeing any track time soon, but will be in the future. As of now, I'm currently running canyons around my area and that's where I need the reliability of a good coilover. I've heard that the new Speed by Design coilover was built similar to the ST coils, but is not as durable as the Godspeed Mono RS coilover. Just wanted your guys' input!

Thanks again in advance!

I'll give ya a quick run down on reliability and quality based on what I have read and researched.

1a. Öhlins TTX, JRZ RS Pro, Penske 8300, Race level Motons (Now renamed HVT),
1b. Öhlins R&T, JRZ RS1, JRZ RS, Penskes (non race series), AST
2a. KW Clubsport 2-way/3-way, Bilstein MDS 1-way/2-way dampers, Bilstein MDS Formula 3, Tein SRC
2b. KW V1/V2/V3, Bilstein PSS B14/B16, B6/B8 dampers, Koni dampers, Swift Springs
3. Eibach
4. Lower level Tein, BC, Megan's Racing, stance

Quality and durability on the upper scale (1a/1b-2a/2b) can be flip flopped. Race suspension is quality, but do to the Motorsport nature, you would have to rebuild more often, whereas the street versions are of similar quality but require less rebuilding.

[Model Citizen]

About sorted on my brake upgrade path. Looking to skip the wasted time/money on marginal upgrades.

Car is Rotorex sc kit, kwv3 coils, 17x8et45 rpf1, 235/40/17 bf sport comp 2 tires (for now).

Use is street, autox, track. Pretty much any opportunity for local events.

Thinking of ap sprint kit with Cl rc5+ pads , and the same pads for the stock rear calipers and rotors. Bias should be fine right?

There's also a couple sets of brakeman f4 and 2 piece rotors in sti fitment on Subaru forums for sale, kinda tempted but haven't found nearly the same amount of user feedback as I have on the ap setup.


Thanks

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by cdrazic93

I'll give ya a quick run down on reliability and durability based on what I have read and researched.

1. Öhlins, JRZ, Penske, Moton (all are $$$$)
2. KW, Bilstein, and any company that uses their parts but built to their specifications: ST, RCE etc ($$$)
3. Eibach and Some upper level Tein are of decent quality ($$)
4. Lower level Tein, BC, Megan's Racing, anything lower than $1,000, with ST being the exception ($)

*raises hand*
Just a small point. You name brands as if all the products one brand makes are the same. JRZ street dampers have different requirements to their race dampers so the "durability" for their RS line is different to their Race line. Ohlins R&T are very different to their TTXs. Some Teins are more expensive than some of the dampers made by the brands in "2".
Also, $800 dampers can be reliable but are still crappy quality.

[cdrazic93]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

*raises hand*
Just a small point. You name brands as if all the products one brand makes are the same. JRZ street dampers have different requirements to their race dampers so the "durability" for their RS line is different to their Race line. Ohlins R&T are very different to their TTXs. Some Teins are more expensive than some of the dampers made by the brands in "2".
Also, $800 dampers can be reliable but are still crappy quality.

I could have made it more detailed, like 1a, Ohlins TTX 1b. Ohlins R&T but they would still be above KW and the like. BUT! then again it's also my opinion and what I have read and researched so far I haven't heard very much about the upper Tein, at all to place it well in my overly general list

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by cdrazic93

I could have made it more detailed, like 1a, Ohlins TTX 1b. Ohlins R&T but they would still be above KW and the like. BUT! then again it's also my opinion and what I have read and researched so far I haven't heard very much about the upper Tein, at all to place it well in my overly general list

please keep in mind that there is also another dimension to this whole thing... custom valving and rebuilding

off-the-shelf (OTS) parts arn't always the best even if they are from brand names

they are valved (tuned) to a specific ride quality and use that may or may not match your roads, needs or even your ability as a driver.

most mis-use OTS stuff, or glorify things that are actually signs of poor compatability because they don't know any better.. number one of which is "stiffness", people thing a stiff/slightly jarring/feel every bump suspension is "good", if your body is being tossed up and down over small bumps on city streets, then that is far from optimal.


a high end Ohlins package designed for specific used while used for another is still money wasted

on the other hand a low end package re-valved for your specific application will ride pretty darn well.

i have recently been doing some research on custom valved units, a lot of which immitate rally suspensions, and have found plenty of resources that pretty much point to the fact that many of the well known brands that you know arn't really catering to what you actually need and rather sell you things you think represent a quality suspension... but more on that later.


so really, what to take away from this, is don't buy OTS stuff, at the very least buy sets that were specifically tuned for our cars with specific goals. The more precise a seller can explain what their suspension is for, the more trust you can give them. The more general they are, the more i'd stay way.

also stay away from tuners that offer unreal, physics defying solutions to otherwise complex problems. Such as 2" drop on anotherwise stock vehicle and "improved comfort and grip", that's just cray cray.

[cycleboy]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

Toe will be slightly affected front and rear. You'll want an alignment after installing the springs.

You don't necessarily need to add anything to the springs. However....

For the front, the "OEM" camber bolts are like 10 bucks and make a huge difference. I think every car should have them and they should have come with them from the factory. It lets you get a little more camber up front and even it out. You'd be happier with close to -1 degrees or a little more for DD. Very noticeable difference in handling. Everyone just really should do this, even without adding springs.

For the rear, you have 3 options. LCAs, rear whiteline camber bushings, and nothing.

LCAs are more expensive but easy to install and adjust.

The rear camber bushings are cheaper but a pain to install and a bigger pain to adjust. They do also add a slight performance benefit in that it's a firmer bushing.

Doing nothing is actually not a bad option as you'll end up approximately where you need to be with our mild drop RCE Yellows. Any more drop and you'd probably want to do something.

I'm anal and like things to be "perfect" and equal side-to-side, so I'd probably do something. But that doesn't mean you need to.

- Andy

So it's been a bit over a month since you posted this response to me and I haven't done anything yet! The Yellows and OEM crash bolts are sitting in my garage. Some of that's been due to lack of time and making sure I have the confidence to tackle the install on my own (I think I should be fine).

But also due to debating the need or not for LCAs. I'd rather not have to shell out the extra $$ (have the Xterra to refurb too, and a wife to keep happy!), but I'm concerned that I get the right settings after the install. I don't want to put everything on and drive it to the alignment place (35 miles one way) and find out the rear can't be dialed in. Still hemming and hawing about that.

Speaking of dialing it in, I've never dealt with requesting any sort of specific alignment specs before (like hey, I want about -1 deg front camber). Is my local tire place going to be able to do that, or are they more likely in the business of just setting things to factory spec?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Model Citizen

About sorted on my brake upgrade path. Looking to skip the wasted time/money on marginal upgrades.

Car is Rotorex sc kit, kwv3 coils, 17x8et45 rpf1, 235/40/17 bf sport comp 2 tires (for now).

Use is street, autox, track. Pretty much any opportunity for local events.

Thinking of ap sprint kit with Cl rc5+ pads , and the same pads for the stock rear calipers and rotors. Bias should be fine right?

There's also a couple sets of brakeman f4 and 2 piece rotors in sti fitment on Subaru forums for sale, kinda tempted but haven't found nearly the same amount of user feedback as I have on the ap setup.


Thanks

Yes, bias will be fine.

-Mike

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by cycleboy

So it's been a bit over a month since you posted this response to me and I haven't done anything yet! The Yellows and OEM crash bolts are sitting in my garage. Some of that's been due to lack of time and making sure I have the confidence to tackle the install on my own (I think I should be fine).

But also due to debating the need or not for LCAs. I'd rather not have to shell out the extra $$ (have the Xterra to refurb too, and a wife to keep happy!), but I'm concerned that I get the right settings after the install. I don't want to put everything on and drive it to the alignment place (35 miles one way) and find out the rear can't be dialed in. Still hemming and hawing about that.

Speaking of dialing it in, I've never dealt with requesting any sort of specific alignment specs before (like hey, I want about -1 deg front camber). Is my local tire place going to be able to do that, or are they more likely in the business of just setting things to factory spec?

Check your local forum on here for a recommended alignment shop. Sometimes even if you give a shop specs to hit they won't even bother.

You don't "need" rear camber adjustment. It's nice to have and I'd want it. But if money is tight it's not the end of the world, you'll just have a tiny bit more than you want and it could be slightly uneven. Not the end of the world.

- Andy

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by Model Citizen

About sorted on my brake upgrade path. Looking to skip the wasted time/money on marginal upgrades.

Car is Rotorex sc kit, kwv3 coils, 17x8et45 rpf1, 235/40/17 bf sport comp 2 tires (for now).

Use is street, autox, track. Pretty much any opportunity for local events.

Thinking of ap sprint kit with Cl rc5+ pads , and the same pads for the stock rear calipers and rotors. Bias should be fine right?

There's also a couple sets of brakeman f4 and 2 piece rotors in sti fitment on Subaru forums for sale, kinda tempted but haven't found nearly the same amount of user feedback as I have on the ap setup.


Thanks

Agreed with CSG, that will be fine.

Good set-up too.

[cdrazic93]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

i have recently been doing some research on custom valved units, a lot of which immitate rally suspensions, and have found plenty of resources that pretty much point to the fact that many of the well known brands that you know arn't really catering to what you actually need and rather sell you things you think represent a quality suspension... but more on that later.

I would love for you to elaborate on this, or PM me or whatever.

Originally Posted by 7thgear

also stay away from tuners that offer unreal, physics defying solutions to otherwise complex problems.

32 way dampening from BC for under $1,000!?! NO WAY!! lol

[cycleboy]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

Check your local forum on here for a recommended alignment shop. Sometimes even if you give a shop specs to hit they won't even bother.

You don't "need" rear camber adjustment. It's nice to have and I'd want it. But if money is tight it's not the end of the world, you'll just have a tiny bit more than you want and it could be slightly uneven. Not the end of the world.

- Andy

Unfortunately, "local" as far as I know for a performance shop is going to be LA area and minimum 4 hr round trip. As far as I know there's nothing closer. But never hurts to ask!