Spec Twin?

[tony_r]

We are basically on par with GS/HS in speed. Sometimes ES. We joke locally that SSC is just E Street with a roof.

Started acquiring parts to jump out. Going to run this kit with some tweaks for STX. I do like the Koni's, they've got a great adjustment range. I figure this kit with real rubber and a header/tune would be good enough to maybe steal some wins locally and run mid-pack nationally. Figure cutting the bumpers in front and getting extended top hats in the rear will fix the main suspension issues.

Will be running Jonathan's car for the rest of the year & likely at nationals, he's not switching out yet.

[Twinz]

Regarding setup;

I tried the stiff rear bar setting this past weekend and was actually surprised at how small of a difference the change made.

The car turns a little better under throttle but is also doesn't quite hook up as well (rear tires) when throttling out of turns. (Tonda had her first spin in about 8 months with the setup)

I benchmarked a bunch of other drivers before and after the bar change and I improved vs all of them....but barely. Less than 2 tenths was the biggest improvement and just hundredths on the other end.

The improvement is so small that it might have just been me having a better day than the last time me and my benchmarks competed, or the car could be a little quicker.

I will try it again in a couple weeks, but I am still undecided at this point.

[strat61caster]

@tony_r Spring for camber plates up front imho, it's a safe bet you'll want more than -3 degrees with stickier rubber, what's basically a 200# spring up front and cut bump stops although I'm sure you'll be chasing the frontrunners even with limited camber (unless you find the beefiest bar you can put on an 86 up front)

Whiteline bushing inserts for the rear subframe are a no brainer for $50, easily makes my top three bang for buck mod behind more camber from a stock car.

Are you sticking with the 8" wheels with 225's?

[tony_r]

Originally Posted by Twinz

Regarding setup;

I tried the stiff rear bar setting this past weekend and was actually surprised at how small of a difference the change made.

The car turns a little better under throttle but is also doesn't quite hook up as well (rear tires) when throttling out of turns. (Tonda had her first spin in about 8 months with the setup)

I benchmarked a bunch of other drivers before and after the bar change and I improved vs all of them....but barely. Less than 2 tenths was the biggest improvement and just hundredths on the other end.

The improvement is so small that it might have just been me having a better day than the last time me and my benchmarks competed, or the car could be a little quicker.

I will try it again in a couple weeks, but I am still undecided at this point.

We back to back tested the car and also recorded a slight improvement in speed with the hard rear bar. Thus far our notes are:

Soft/Soft - Hate the feeling of the car with Falkens, worked well with BFGs. Slow to change direction, bias push in low grip surface, neutral high grip. Really not great in transitions, can be loose and get out of phase by the last few slalom cones. It's only a matter of time that you get deep in the rear bumpstops and the car gets really loose, really fast. Drive-able, but can be a lot better.

Soft/Hard - Much better feeling but not a lot of time difference. More predictable, easier to drive which leads to a fast pace out of the gate. Needs rear rebound to tame the setup for most drivers, but can't put in too much on high grip concrete as the rear of the car will start skipping on exit. Add front rebound for quicker response, add toe for exit stability. Keeps the rear off the stops until you hit really high speed transitions. Will push on high grip surface, fast sweepers when you get deeper into the front stops.

Hard/Soft - Do you like push? This is how you get push. Very slow & painful in low speed corners, not a lot you can do to fix. Stable in transitions but actually overall slower than Soft/Hard in those sections. Would not recommend anyone try this unless you make the car snappy with high rear tire pressure and possibly pulling rear spacers if you have that option.

Hard/Hard - Probably the most stable and predictable the car is going to be. Virtually no difference in time between this and Soft/Hard on smaller courses. About the only difference is you can't overdrive the front on entry or it will push much earlier. Virtually no front rebound needed on higher grip sites about the same rear rebound as Soft/Hard setup. Less rear toe needed, but we haven't fully tested yet. We're pretty sure this is the high grip surface setup, but again we need to test more. It does keep the car off the deeper parts of the front bumpstops so that's a plus.

The car is totally and completely limited by the Falkens. There is a "peak" time you will reach with all the setups, it's just a matter of how you get there. Driving like an asshole with the tires screaming to high hell and disagreeing with everything you do can sometimes net in a slightly faster clock time. Lots of risk for very little reward though. Pressures from 28-34 or so.

Temps: we think the Falkens are OK when the tire surface temp is hot. Once the core of the tire heats up it's pretty much downhill from there. Liberal amount of spraying when they get to about the BFG operating temp helps a little, but couldn't realize the benefit of that on the clock.

[tony_r]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

@tony_r Spring for camber plates up front imho, it's a safe bet you'll want more than -3 degrees with stickier rubber, what's basically a 200# spring up front and cut bump stops although I'm sure you'll be chasing the frontrunners even with limited camber (unless you find the beefiest bar you can put on an 86 up front)

Whiteline bushing inserts for the rear subframe are a no brainer for $50, easily makes my top three bang for buck mod behind more camber from a stock car.

Are you sticking with the 8" wheels with 225's?

Really just want more rear travel. TBH I really don't care about the front, the camber we have is adequate at -3.2 with a 225 on an 8". When we had the car on BFG's it really didn't care about the front bumpers. I'm basically going to take a measured, piecemeal approach about the setup. Only going to fix problems as they arise. I don't think a lot of the stuff that's allowed in STX is worth much any time.

[iLuveKetchup]

Falkens most definitely suck as a competition tire!! Having said that, I think they are great as part/component to a learning tool.

I know everyone's goals are different, I'm in SSC to learn how to drive. I am still very green and having the fastest tire will probably mask my mistakes and create bad habits.

At least this is how I spin it. (read: This is how I lie to myself so I can sleep at night. )

[chkltcow]

I don't get all the hate for the tires. They're a spec tire, which means we're all on equal footing with them.... so they're a GREAT competition tire. Multiple people drove my car this weekend.... one of them has a well prepped STX FRS... another has a well prepped DS FRS.... both of them thought it was fun. The tires give good feedback, they have a predictable breakaway, and they can tolerate being driven with slip angle. They just don't have the peak levels of grip that some of the other 200tw tires do.

I'm still dialing back 4 years of Hoosier habits. It's a BIG change from that level of grip. But I'm still really enjoying the feel of them... and DEFINITELY enjoying the price.

[Lex_K]

Originally Posted by tony_r

We back to back tested the car and also recorded a slight improvement in speed with the hard rear bar. Thus far our notes are:

Soft/Soft - Hate the feeling of the car with Falkens, worked well with BFGs. Slow to change direction, bias push in low grip surface, neutral high grip. Really not great in transitions, can be loose and get out of phase by the last few slalom cones. It's only a matter of time that you get deep in the rear bumpstops and the car gets really loose, really fast. Drive-able, but can be a lot better.

Soft/Hard - Much better feeling but not a lot of time difference. More predictable, easier to drive which leads to a fast pace out of the gate. Needs rear rebound to tame the setup for most drivers, but can't put in too much on high grip concrete as the rear of the car will start skipping on exit. Add front rebound for quicker response, add toe for exit stability. Keeps the rear off the stops until you hit really high speed transitions. Will push on high grip surface, fast sweepers when you get deeper into the front stops.

Hard/Soft - Do you like push? This is how you get push. Very slow & painful in low speed corners, not a lot you can do to fix. Stable in transitions but actually overall slower than Soft/Hard in those sections. Would not recommend anyone try this unless you make the car snappy with high rear tire pressure and possibly pulling rear spacers if you have that option.

Hard/Hard - Probably the most stable and predictable the car is going to be. Virtually no difference in time between this and Soft/Hard on smaller courses. About the only difference is you can't overdrive the front on entry or it will push much earlier. Virtually no front rebound needed on higher grip sites about the same rear rebound as Soft/Hard setup. Less rear toe needed, but we haven't fully tested yet. We're pretty sure this is the high grip surface setup, but again we need to test more. It does keep the car off the deeper parts of the front bumpstops so that's a plus.

The car is totally and completely limited by the Falkens. There is a "peak" time you will reach with all the setups, it's just a matter of how you get there. Driving like an asshole with the tires screaming to high hell and disagreeing with everything you do can sometimes net in a slightly faster clock time. Lots of risk for very little reward though. Pressures from 28-34 or so.

Temps: we think the Falkens are OK when the tire surface temp is hot. Once the core of the tire heats up it's pretty much downhill from there. Liberal amount of spraying when they get to about the BFG operating temp helps a little, but couldn't realize the benefit of that on the clock.

Very good info, thanks.

[tony_r]

Originally Posted by chkltcow

I don't get all the hate for the tires. They're a spec tire, which means we're all on equal footing with them.... so they're a GREAT competition tire.

It's a great tire for an entry-level class and entry-level driving in general. That seems to be the intent and I see the value of it.

However in the beginning, I was coming at it from a different angle. My initial impressions (back in September) were that the car was the step between Street and Street Touring with performance to match. We put a top tier tire on the it and started getting the jump on setup. Had a lot of fun in the process and the car was certainly performing in the space we expected it to.

Fast forward to the spec tire pick and, while I can see the benefit of the choice, I can also see that the goals of the class do not align with my goals & expectations of the car. The most important thing for me is to have fun driving it, and (for me) this tire gives up when the fun starts.

Falkens are cheap, and that's great for running costs, but they wear about the same as a top tier 200tw. I got more runs out of ES tires while going faster and (to me) having more fun. I got out of ES for this class, and I'm now being matched or raw-timed by my car from last year. That's a significant blow to my ego and not one I feel is worth swallowing. It's annoying spending the money to buy into the class and not go any faster, to say the least. At least I have a roof and can carry more than a suitcase.

I really do like spec classes, but the most important thing to me is to have fun. It's similar to my thoughts of SRF Gen 2 vs SRF Gen 3.

[Twinz]

Maybe it's the extra camber, but the Falkens on my SSC car are holding up better than the rivals or the Re71's did when I was in CS.

I live in SW FL, so the heat sensitivity is a downside, but I enjoy driving on these tires more than I did the Rivals and almost as much as the RE71's

[tony_r]

Originally Posted by Twinz

Maybe it's the extra camber, but the Falkens on my SSC car are holding up better than the rivals or the Re71's did when I was in CS.

I live in SW FL, so the heat sensitivity is a downside, but I enjoy driving on these tires more than I did the Rivals and almost as much as the RE71's

I can understand why, I never actually enjoyed CS/DS variants of the twins. Have you driven STX?

[Twinz]

Originally Posted by tony_r

I can understand why, I never actually enjoyed CS/DS variants of the twins. Have you driven STX?

I have driven David's twin before he sold it. He had it set up with a pretty sharp edge. (Much like his STR ND) I probably could have gotten used to it, but I just remember it convincing me that physics was optional....right up to the point it would let go. (I felt like Neo failing his first building jump in the Matrix) lol


I never drove it on the street either. My STU Z was brutal though. My Fitbit gave me steps for driving that thing on the highway.

The SSC setup feels like a true drive-to-the-track setup. The CS setup was comfortable on road trips too though. I suspect my CS setup (TRD stuff with an ST front bar set to soft) plus SSC wheels and SSC camber would be better balanced than the Eibach beast-bar approach.

But I don't think this kit sucks. I think it does pretty well for the money spent.

[Imp]

Originally Posted by tony_r

It's annoying spending the money to buy into the class and not go any faster, to say the least.

Going "faster" is not the point of the class. Being on rather equal footing to other drivers, and eliminating many variables such as "car for the class", "tires for the class", "$3k shocks", and drivetrain for weather etc... is the point. They're gone.

Autox isn't all about speed or time, relative to other classes. Its about being the fastest in your class.

Leaves me asking the question... who scared you to run you away?

--kC

[M0nk3y]

Originally Posted by Imp

Going "faster" is not the point of the class. Being on rather equal footing to other drivers, and eliminating many variables such as "car for the class", "tires for the class", "$3k shocks", and drivetrain for weather etc... is the point. They're gone.



Autox isn't all about speed or time, relative to other classes. Its about being the fastest in your class.



Leaves me asking the question... who scared you to run you away?



--kC

You contradict yourself, if going faster isn’t the point then how does anyone win or compete?




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