2012 Mazda RX-9 ???

[n2oinferno]

http://www.autonews.com/article/2013...#axzz2l56Rwnhh

Hans Greimel
Automotive News
November 18, 2013 - 12:01 am ET
HIROSHIMA, Japan -- Masa-michi Kogai, the new CEO of Mazda Motor Corp., has set what looks like an impossibly high bar for reintroducing the company's rotary engine.
Sales would have to total 100,000 a year for Mazda to resurrect the technology, he said. So Mazda isn't planning a rotary revival, he said.
"No plans now," Kogai said in an interview Friday. "It has to be a viable commercial proposition. If we are going to adopt it, it has to be a product that can generate at least sales of 100,000 units a year. We have to be able to achieve a profit."
Kogai, a no-nonsense production veteran with a knack for cost crunching, took office in June after overhauling the company's manufacturing.
Among his coups: transforming Mazda's erstwhile loss-making Japan operations into a lean export machine able to post profits with tough foreign exchange rates.
The rotary engine had been a Mazda bragging point ever since the company became the first to market the technology in 1968, in its Familia Rotary Coupe/Mazda R100.
But the company killed the powerplant last year when the last RX-8 sports car rolled off the line. The engine is also known as the Wankel after the German engineer who invented it.
A rebirth has been the subject of incessant speculation -- often fueled by Mazda itself. Last year, then-President Takashi Yamanouchi dangled the idea of putting a rotary in a hybrid vehicle to generate electricity that would charge the battery.
Nothing has come of that so far.
The engine's chief hurdle is technical -- meeting today's more stringent emissions regulations. It would also mean giving valuable production capacity to a unique small-batch model.
In 2011, the RX-8's last full-year of sales in the United States, Mazda sold only 759 of the cars in its biggest market. The RX-8's peak annual sales in the United States were 23,690 units in 2004, according to the Automotive News Data Center. The rotary-powered RX-7's U.S. sales peak was 56,203 units in 1986.
At today's lean Mazda, which just booked its first annual profit in five years, the new priorities are cost performance, economies of scale and uniform manufacturing. So it's hardly receptive to what some may see as vanity projects.
Still, Kogai said Mazda hasn't completely abandoned the notion. Engineers continue to research the technology, he said, in part because the rotary engine can run flexibly on a wide variety of fuels, including gasoline, hydrogen and even kerosene.
"We are the first and only manufacturer to commercialize the rotary engine. In that respect, we have some responsibility," Kogai said. "So please allow us to continue our research."

Can't really say I'm disappointed. The RX8 would've been a much better car with the 2.3 Mazdaspeed engine, imo. Sure it wouldn't have been an RX, but it also would've had halfway decent gas mileage and much better reliability.

[Whitigir]

I totally agree with Mazda. The Rotary Engine can not, and will never be a Reliable engine due to the structure, and laws of physics.

That is why Pistols engines are used more often, they last, and they can be rebuilt, unlike Rotary.

I can also see how expensive it is to make a good Rotary engines, according to our Inflation rate, shatty economic, and exchange rate, which does a good chunk of damage toward the automotive industry.

The one thing that can replace the Rotary now is their newly Sky-Active Diesel engine.

They have a pretty good one, that does not need a Solution Tank to achieve emission standards, lean burning, and more efficient than the German / Europe Diesels

[n2oinferno]

I would swoon if Mazda introduced a SkyActiv Diesel AWD Mazdaspeed 3.

[strat61caster]

Can't blame them though, the logic is sound. Get the company profitable now so they can create future awesomesauce. They just have to make sure they don't get lazy like recent Toyota/Honda efforts.

Edit: The only way they could hit those sales goals would be with a hybrid that fights current Volt/Prius/Insight, they're too late to that market so they would have to create something that decimated the competition, a very high bar. This means it'd be a powertrain that fit in everything from the tiny Mazda 2 to the full size Mazda 6 (and everything in between) as a hybrid option, making it so modular would induce compromises elsewhere, it would take a miracle for it to hit the targets Kogai has set.

[zigzagz94]

Originally Posted by Whitigir

I totally agree with Mazda. The Rotary Engine can not, and will never be a Reliable engine due to the structure, and laws of physics.

My FC Turbo II was the most reliable car that I've ever owned. Arguments can be made about rotaries being fuel inefficient but most of the reliability complaints come from owners not understanding how to properly maintain their engines. Mazda needed to do more to educate owners on the differences between rotaries and pistons and how to take care of their cars. Alot of owners don't want to take the time to check the oil levels and add a little if needed. Plus rotaries need to be driven with hate, redlining it once a day is good for the engine. People who expected the same ownership and maintenance experience as a typical piston engine were disappointed.

[autobrz]

I did a calculation of a used rx-8 vs a used brz. The gas mileage + the extra engine oil costs + the loss of resale value (due to general longevity of rotaries) just made it a much worse deal even though a used rx-8 can be bought for a lot less than a used brz with similar mileage and condition. I calculated hundreds of dollars more per year for gasoline + extra engine oil comsumption. With the uncertainty of future gas prices, it just doesn't make sense... although I agree most consumers don't think that much about long term cost of ownership, but then they also don't want a niche car that requires special care.

Even if it's for business reasons, I"m glad mazda is done with the rotary so they can finally make a decent rwd car other than a miata

[Whitigir]

Originally Posted by autobrz

I did a calculation of a used rx-8 vs a used brz. The gas mileage + the extra engine oil costs + the loss of resale value (due to general longevity of rotaries) just made it a much worse deal even though a used rx-8 can be bought for a lot less than a used brz with similar mileage and condition. I calculated hundreds of dollars more per year for gasoline + extra engine oil comsumption. With the uncertainty of future gas prices, it just doesn't make sense... although I agree most consumers don't think that much about long term cost of ownership, but then they also don't want a niche car that requires special care.

Even if it's for business reasons, I"m glad mazda is done with the rotary so they can finally make a decent rwd car other than a miata

There is no way to Find a good unmolested RX-8 nowadays.

1/ Proper maintenance needed to keep the car reliable, but most of the people don't read manual book, and treat it as regular engine
2/ People who do proper maintenance are all enthusiasts with racing blood, and they drive the heck out of it, or track it
3/ The people that does all the proper maintenance, but does not drive the heck out of it **Almost Extinct**

[Levi]

Not sure if good or bad news. I don't care about Wankel engine as much as I wish an aggressive looking "MX-5" Coupé.

[n2oinferno]

Originally Posted by zigzagz94

My FC Turbo II was the most reliable car that I've ever owned. Arguments can be made about rotaries being fuel inefficient but most of the reliability complaints come from owners not understanding how to properly maintain their engines. Mazda needed to do more to educate owners on the differences between rotaries and pistons and how to take care of their cars. Alot of owners don't want to take the time to check the oil levels and add a little if needed. Plus rotaries need to be driven with hate, redlining it once a day is good for the engine. People who expected the same ownership and maintenance experience as a typical piston engine were disappointed.

There are plenty of people on RX8Club that do premix, redline daily, treat their engine like a rotary is supposed to be treated, and they're now on their second or third engine. Mazda didn't just go out and extend the engine warranty for so much longer just out of the goodness of their heart.

[Whitigir]

Originally Posted by Marchy

um, rotaries can be rebuilt, my buddy rebuilt his turbo RX-8 in 3 weekends and upgraded his apex seals with ones from the rx-7.

but with that said, the rotary was doomed once they went NA with it in the RX-8 and installed crappier apex seals.

Those are major works, and the performance result won't be as good as the rebuilt pistols engine types.

What I meant Rotary can't be rebuild = Because it cost way more than buying a new engine all together...

Luckily the people who works on their car can still do it, and your friend is an exceptional mechanic to do so.

[rcm47]

Mazda is headed in the right direction with their new sky-active engines.

[reni]

The feel and sound of the rotary was an amazing experience unlike anything else, and isn't that why we are all here? If we valued fuel efficiency more than driving experience, all of our conversations would revolve around hypermiling in our soulless FWD econoboxes...

But having said that, I don't see why they can't just have both rotary and piston versions of the same car... the enthusiasts could have the car they wanted, and the beancounters could have their sales figures.

A modern iteration of the RX-7 would have rivaled the Cayman S in both performance and driving experience for half the cost, so it's really disappointing to think we won't get a car like that, and I think Mazda is only company who could really pull it off. (not interested in a heavy dull Z) Perhaps with all the focus on sales volume will lead to Mazda making more variations of the Miata platform? I wouldn't mind an "MX-7" coupe with the 2.3 turbo...

[OrbitalEllipses]

Unsurprised.

[rice_classic]

I'm glad to hear that Mazda has put their bad decisions behind them.