"gah FRS/BRZ are so slow, if only they had like 50 more hp"

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by regal

This car is big to me. Its width is more than the 2015 Mustang.

Width is generally a good thing in a sports car.

[Deadspool]

At the end of the day, yes the car could use a little more power. But i dare a Caliber SRT-4 to chase me into the corner at the same speed.

Fucking things drive like a desk.

[Suberman]

What on Earth is an Alpha Romeo?

Speaking of driving a desk, what ever happened to the Alfonzo di Credenza?

[regal]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Width is generally a good thing in a sports car.

To an extent but this width is GT class, the wheelbase is long also.
I'm just saying this is more a GT than a sports car and Toyota agrees. It went from being named the FT-86 to GT-86.

If you ever driven go-cart sprint type sports car (the MRS is the perfect example.) You would understand what I am trying to say.

Another example is this car feels much more GTish than the good Miata's. Its not what I would consider a tossable/handles like a go cart british car.

If you've ever driven a E30 BMW, Porsche 944S, 240Sx, even 240z this car is similar. If you are interested compare the curb weight, dimensions, and power to weight ratios of those cars to this, very similar.

As far as sales dropping off, there comes a point where sales drop too fast. They need to listen to their customers.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by regal

To an extent but this width is GT class, the wheelbase is long also.
I'm just saying this is more a GT than a sports car and Toyota agrees. It went from being named the FT-86 to GT-86.

If you ever driven go-cart sprint type sports car (the MRS is the perfect example.) You would understand what I am trying to say.

Another example is this car feels much more GTish than the good Miata's. Its not what I would consider a tossable/handles like a go cart british car.

If you've ever driven a E30 BMW, Porsche 944S, 240Sx, even 240z this car is similar. If you are interested compare the curb weight and power to weight ratios of those cars to this, very similar.

As far as sales dropping off, there comes a point where sales drop too fast. They need to listen to their customers.

I think the wheelbase is the main difference in how nimble the FR-S feels versus a Miata (I've spent a lot of time driving NA and NC Miatas). The FR-S is only 2" wider than an NC Miata (and 1" by track width), but has a 10" longer wheelbase. Those 10" in the wheelbase will have a much greater effect on how the car feels from my experience.

Also width is one of those things where it's win-win. If you go narrower, you get more maneuverability, but if you go wider, you get more overall grip in corners (assuming track width increases correspondingly), so it's not all bad, and some would say good. This is why you'll see limits on max track width in the rules for racing classes.

[regal]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

I think the wheelbase is the main difference in how nimble the FR-S feels versus a Miata (I've spent a lot of time driving NA and NC Miatas). The FR-S is only 2" wider than an NC Miata (and 1" by track width), but has a 10" longer wheelbase. Those 10" in the wheelbase will have a much greater effect on how the car feels from my experience.

Also width is one of those things where it's win-win. If you go narrower, you get more maneuverability, but if you go wider, you get more overall grip in corners (assuming track width increases correspondingly), so it's not all bad, and some would say good. This is why you'll see limits on max track width in the rules for racing classes.

You get what I'm saying. For my roads maneuverability is very important. And yes the wheel base is long, if you've ever parked a Miata in a crowded parking lot compared to the FRS you immediately notice this is a much bigger car.

But I'm happy with it because its not a ragtop, it has amazing balance, and a few times a year it does fantastic on long interstate trips that sports cars can become a form of torture. Its a lot like an E30 BMW in this regard.

The one thing Tada alluded to in the development of the car was start with a great chassis. I agree with this, who knows what's in store in 5-10 years. We may be able to drop in a factory H6 or Turbo 4 for $6k. We may finally get a TRD strut/spring package. The potential is there.

[thill]

As has been said many times, there is definitely room with the stock chassis for this car to make 300hp and 220+ ft lbs of torque at the crank. Subaru has several boxer engines available that are turbocharged and can be dropped in this car that would not change the characteristics of the car drastically. The biggest concern would be turbo lag, but that can be managed with a smaller turbo and good tuning.

I don't recall the last WRX I drove having excessive turbo lag, but I have owned turbo cars and am fairly used to it.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by regal

You get what I'm saying. For my roads maneuverability is very important. And yes the wheel base is long, if you've ever parked a Miata in a crowded parking lot compared to the FRS you immediately notice this is a much bigger car.

But I'm happy with it because its not a ragtop, it has amazing balance, and a few times a year it does fantastic on long interstate trips that sports cars can become a form of torture. Its a lot like an E30 BMW in this regard.

The one thing Tada alluded to in the development of the car was start with a great chassis. I agree with this, who knows what's in store in 5-10 years. We may be able to drop in a factory H6 or Turbo 4 for $6k. We may finally get a TRD strut/spring package. The potential is there.

Yeah a great chassis is definitely the first building block. My latest obsession (after seeing how well ImperiousRex's turbo BRZ is handling the track) is a bottom-mounted turbo like PTuning or AVO. De-tune slightly (or downsize the turbo) for a reliable 250-270 whp and go have some fun. Hmm...

[jarviz]

Originally Posted by thill

I think we all would have loved this car to be closer to 2500lbs, but that is probably just too costly at the $25-28K pricepoint the car is sold at.

Somebody name another RWD sports coupe that is sold new today that is under 2800lbs that has a backseat and a useable trunk for $25K?

exactly my thoughts. 25K for back seats that actually function if you really need them, and decent trunk space. what more can you ask for at that price. I think all the people that complain about this car forget how much they paid for this car.

[Coolhand]

There are a few things that I would like added: factory turbo charging to get the torque up (STi variant). Rear view camera (in all models the stock radio is set up for it- they were just being cheap). Optional factory installed Brembros brakes and lighter wheels (STi variant). Rear wiper (all models). Orange painted model (STi variant).

I would order that car in a heartbeat.

[regal]

Originally Posted by thill

As has been said many times, there is definitely room with the stock chassis for this car to make 300hp and 220+ ft lbs of torque at the crank. Subaru has several boxer engines available that are turbocharged and can be dropped in this car that would not change the characteristics of the car drastically. The biggest concern would be turbo lag, but that can be managed with a smaller turbo and good tuning.

I don't recall the last WRX I drove having excessive turbo lag, but I have owned turbo cars and am fairly used to it.

I agree and I think this is where Tada really dropped the ball. He specifically did not want a turbo. He wanted the NA throttle response. His youth/inexperience missed the fact that a high compression DIT is a much different animal than even the last WRX. A DIT engine can have throttle response that is very very good. A big missed opportunity that would have added little cost to the car. Hell a $14k Chevy Sonic has a DIT engine and test driving one you would never guess it had a turbo.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by regal

I agree and I think this is where Tada really dropped the ball. He specifically did not want a turbo. He wanted the NA throttle response. His youth/inexperience missed the fact that a high compression DIT is a much different animal than even the last WRX. A DIT engine can have throttle response that is very very good. A big missed opportunity that would have added little cost to the car. Hell a $14k Chevy Sonic has a DIT engine and test driving one you would never guess it had a turbo.

You can still tell, even in the best current turbo cars. The lowest-lag turbo car I've ever driven is a brand new F30 BMW 335i, which has direct injection, a small twin-scroll (fairly low boost) turbo, and it's a fairly large engine (3.0L, which helps with spool up time) and all kinds of fancy electronics, and my Cayman's throttle response is still very noticeably better. Personally, I think the best all around option would be a supercharger, but I also have a thing for high-performance NA engines. Turbos are (in my opinion) kind of a necessary evil - I understand that they let you get more power than any other option, and are more efficient, but I don't think they give you the same experience. I like the noise a naturally aspirated engine makes, I like the instantaneous throttle response, the ease of modulating it mid-corner, and I've never driven a turbocharged car that can compare.

[thill]

Originally Posted by regal

I agree and I think this is where Tada really dropped the ball. He specifically did not want a turbo. He wanted the NA throttle response. His youth/inexperience missed the fact that a high compression DIT is a much different animal than even the last WRX. A DIT engine can have throttle response that is very very good. A big missed opportunity that would have added little cost to the car. Hell a $14k Chevy Sonic has a DIT engine and test driving one you would never guess it had a turbo.

Well, he had his reasons for not wanting a turbo, and while it seems easy to criticize him for it, I suspect he spent quite a bit of time and research on this. I doubt it was a hasty decision and he has said all along that they wanted a car that the tuning community would embrace. And embrace it they have. Just look how strong the aftermarket support is for this car. There are new kits popping up almost everyday and tons of options. If you want more power it is readily available. So I can't fault him too much, for 90%+ of the owners of these cars I suspect 200hp is more than they will ever need. For the rest it is not like you don't have options. You just have to be willing to toss your warranty..

Releasing a more powerful option is going to be in the cards at some point and we will be able to move on from this whole "the car needs more power" debate. Well, until people complain that 250-300hp is not enough because "insert name here" car makes more and costs the same or less.

[thill]

Originally Posted by chrisl

You can still tell, even in the best current turbo cars. The lowest-lag turbo car I've ever driven is a brand new F30 BMW 335i, which has direct injection, a small twin-scroll (fairly low boost) turbo, and it's a fairly large engine (3.0L, which helps with spool up time) and all kinds of fancy electronics, and my Cayman's throttle response is still very noticeably better. Personally, I think the best all around option would be a supercharger, but I also have a thing for high-performance NA engines. Turbos are (in my opinion) kind of a necessary evil - I understand that they let you get more power than any other option, and are more efficient, but I don't think they give you the same experience. I like the noise a naturally aspirated engine makes, I like the instantaneous throttle response, the ease of modulating it mid-corner, and I've never driven a turbocharged car that can compare.

I agree. At some point in the RPM range the turbo is going to make the required boost and it should be noticeable. While modern technologies have minimized this, it still exists. And it is certainly not all bad, as turbos can really give you that "put you in your seat" experience with power and torque. And it can be fun But it can also be scary, especially if you are not familar with the car and where max boost is made and applied to the wheels. Especially with FWD cars like a Mazda Speed3 which results in some significant torque steer.