FR-S vs. BMW E92 335i

[Max Schnell]

I think all of us are looking at different perspectives on things and our personal circumstances differ. Decisions like this depends heavily on individual taste and needs. If you are stuck with one primary daily driver versus having cars to choose from the decisions are very different.

[SUB-FT86]

Zdan did you even read my post correctly? I said my GF's honda felt heavier in the corners too. I even asked her which car felt heavier between hers and mines and she said hers even thought she doesn't know her car is lighter by 500lbs. My point is that everybody won't agree with your findings..

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

Zdan did you even read my post correctly? I said my GF's honda felt heavier in the corners too. I even asked her which car felt heavier between hers and mines and she said hers even thought she doesn't know her car is lighter by 500lbs. My point is that everybody won't agree with your findings..

Does it have power steering? Could be the issue there.

I get the impression, SUB, that your car desires are not going to happen. Ideally you would want the power-train of these larger cars (even a bit less than them probably), in the small, 2700 lbs, sexy two-door 86. I'm sure if a lot of us that get on you about not getting the 'spirit' of this car would probably shame-facedly have to admit after a drive, that a VQ37 in an 86 would be fantastically epic, despite some handling loss.

But price point is going to be the issue, of course. If you do end up with an 86, it looks like a positive displacement supercharger (Roots or Lysholm/twin-screw) would fix your only real complaint. But there will be a wait for development and a significant cost associated with it.

But there is a chance that Toyota/Scion will come through for you like the dealer-installed tC. Keep the faith!

[SUB-FT86]

@Dimman, it has power steering. I don't hate the 86. But I do feel it could be better just like how I feel about every other car I have driven. Some cars need to lose weight to be perfect, while others need to gain power to be perfect. I have yet to drive a car with that balance.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

@Dimman, it has power steering. I don't hate the 86. But I do feel it could be better just like how I feel about every other car I have driven. Some cars need to lose weight to be perfect, while others need to gain power to be perfect. I have yet to drive a car with that balance.

No, I understand you don't. Just a bit disappointed at the on-paper power delivery. I think you've told me before, that while you like the power deliver of cars like the BMW, the GenCoupe and the Z, you would prefer it if they were more like the 86 in terms of sizing, weight, and appearance.

If the test drive confirms that you're 'meh' on the engine, remember it's easier to throw a positive displacement supercharger on an 86 (hopefully), than to cut off 600 lbs of fat from the alternatives.

[Max Schnell]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

@Dimman, it has power steering. I don't hate the 86. But I do feel it could be better just like how I feel about every other car I have driven. Some cars need to lose weight to be perfect, while others need to gain power to be perfect. I have yet to drive a car with that balance.

You will find that there is no perfect balance when it comes to things you desire in life. It is human psychology. When you find something and you get used to it, then the mind will start to change perceptions and what once was perfect is no more. Understanding that things will never be perfect is the first step to happiness.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

Zdan did you even read my post correctly? I said my GF's honda felt heavier in the corners too. I even asked her which car felt heavier between hers and mines and she said hers even thought she doesn't know her car is lighter by 500lbs.

Yeah, I read your post, I just didn't comment on that part of it.

Different cars made for different people and different usages can and will feel different. If the DX has a slower steering ratio with the same amount of steering "weight", and is less responsive-handling in general, it could well feel heavier to you and your GF.

But which do you think would feel lighter, your RSX at 2800 lb., or your RSX with 500 lb. removed from it?

Regarding RSX vs. 3.8 Gen Coupe, fwd will feel inherently different from rwd even at the same weight, and also it's worth noting that the weight difference on the front wheels (which will have a bigger impact on feel than weight on the rear wheels) is only going to be about 160lb. between the two cars.

My point is that everybody won't agree with your findings..

Like I said, 99% of the population won't give a rat's arse about whether the FR-S/BRZ is 700 lb. lighter than the Gen Coupe.

As a driving instructor, I get to drive and be driven in all kinds of cars, from Miatae, WRXs, Vipers, GT-Rs, Loti, on and on. In my experience, lighter weight cars generally DO feel lighter and more to my liking than similar-layout/similarly-purposed heavier cars. A GT-R is a SICK fast car at the track, but I prefer the experience in a much slower Elise (to give extremes, obviously not similar-layout cars).

I'll be *very* surprised if the FR-S/BRZ doesn't feel MUCH lighter-weight than the Gen Coupe.

Obviously I'm not changing your impression, but I do hope that there are enough people that *do* appreciate minimalism and lightness for lightness' sake and not just for performance numbers that the FR-S/BRZ is a big sales hit. I'm not betting on it, though...

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by Max Schnell

You will find that there is no perfect balance when it comes to things you desire in life. It is human psychology. When you find something and you get used to it, then the mind will start to change perceptions and what once was perfect is no more. Understanding that things will never be perfect is the first step to happiness.

I know this trust me.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by Dimman

No, I understand you don't. Just a bit disappointed at the on-paper power delivery. I think you've told me before, that while you like the power deliver of cars like the BMW, the GenCoupe and the Z, you would prefer it if they were more like the 86 in terms of sizing, weight, and appearance.

If the test drive confirms that you're 'meh' on the engine, remember it's easier to throw a positive displacement supercharger on an 86 (hopefully), than to cut off 600 lbs of fat from the alternatives.

Sounds like a Cayman base or S model.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

Sounds like a Cayman base or S model.

In all honesty, a Cayman gives me more of a car-boner than the 86. However, I don't make that kind of money.

All about damn compromises...

[Mike]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

You can't force your opinion about weight onto me. I know what feels heavy to medium to light and my RSX felt only 300 lbs lighter than the 3.8 Track. My GF owns a 2000 2300 lb civic Dx which feels much heavier than my car and I hate that car with a passion.

Listen to Rhys at 1:29 seconds.

I'd give it a little more credibility of Motor Trend could get drivers that can put down faster lap times at Streets than local hobbyists, myself included.

[duffman13]

Originally Posted by Exage

I had hoped someone with a Type-S (;you) could explain how different the RSX feels with a K20 that makes decent power from get-go. All my previous attempts to explain the different K20 engines have been sadly unsuccessful.

For what it is, the RSX-S is a very competent FWD car.

Consider some of the downsides of the FF layout, specifically torque steer, and having a torqueless honda becomes a blessing rather than a nightmare like a mazdaspeed 3. Compared to a base RSX or a EP3 Si, it's roughly the same power delivery to 5.8k stock, but then instead of trailing off to 7k, it screams up to 8100.

When it was stock, it was very drivable. Modded the way I have it, it is an exceptionally quick FWD car and faster than just about anything in the same power-to-weight category. With my setup, I have 200whp. I'm putting my stock header back on because I'm tired of the noise, but I should still be somewhere in the mid-180s at the wheels, which is still plenty fun.

With the hondata reflash and a cold air intake, it remaps everything so you smooth out the power delivery, and your VTEC comes on 1500rpm sooner. It also give you a boost to low-end torque through messing with the VTC angles, giving you decent pull from about 3k onwards. The lower VTEC point and higher redline means that if you drive it like you stole it and downshift at the proper RPMs, you'll never fall off the big cam either.

The chassis it the best part though, even stock with just a fat rear sway and will rotate on command with trail braking or lift off throttle.

Truth be told, 8th gen Si is a better deal though due to having a stock LSD, RBC Intake manifold, and stereo with an aux input and options for 4 doors and nav, and harldly any weight penalty. The front struts were designed slightly better with a ton more caster and don't run into the bumpsteer problems the RSX has. And I slide around too much on the leather seats, I'd rather have cloth for the track.

I couldn't get over the UFO-looking 2-teir dash though, and preferred the hatch to the trunk. RSX has a more raw feeling than the Si too, which surprised me, leading to my ultimate purchase decision. I se more RSX-S at autocross and track events though, don't know if that means they are better or just have more enthusaiastic owners.

/That was quite the rant there.