Help Gmookher decide AP racing Vs Stoptech BBK vs Essex SPRINT KIT

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

pfff, when has toxicity ever stopped an automotive enthusiast?

also rotors is one thing, but what about the hats?

I've heard Ti suggested for hats before but Im not sure that would work well.

Aluminium expands faster than iron, good in this case since the hat sees less heat the quicker expansion means less stress on the hat during use. A metal with slower expansion would likely require a fully floating system to avoid breaking the hat. We would want something light either way, otherwise we kinda defeat a good bit of weight savings. Magnesium could make for one hell of a purdy light show lol

[BRAWL]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

I've heard Ti suggested for hats before but Im not sure that would work well.

Aluminium expands faster than iron, good in this case since the hat sees less heat the quicker expansion means less stress on the hat during use. A metal with slower expansion would likely require a fully floating system to avoid breaking the hat. We would want something light either way, otherwise we kinda defeat a good bit of weight savings. Magnesium could make for one hell of a purdy light show lol

Isn't Ti directionally brittle? Not sure you could do it for a fast rotating part but I could be wrong?

[NYC BRZ]

AP racing no question.

Sent from my Galaxy S3 using Tapatalk 2

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by LazyZed

Isn't Ti directionally brittle? Not sure you could do it for a fast rotating part but I could be wrong?

Like I mentioned, I didn't think it would work well, but I've seen it suggested before.

[xWiCkeDx]

Originally Posted by gmookher

can you highlight endurance vs sprint key differences, and MSRPSs?

http://www.essexparts.com/shop/compe...yota-gt86.html

Towards the bottom of the page where it says ENDURANCE VS. SPRINT SYSTEM COMPARISON

In my opinion it sounds like you should go with the Endurance system, since your car is mostly track and your going FI.

[JRitt]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

And how would you feel if a customer painted their rotor hats (which they would have to first disassemble?) and/or caliper in seeking corrosion resistance? Sigh, someone buy me a winter beater and storage space for my BRZ.

I don't care if our customers paint their rotor hats pink. They own them, and it's their prerogative. Seriously though, there is no perfect solution for two-piece discs. The best bet is don't run them in the winter regardless of who made them. The more realistic solution for most people is to remove the hats from the discs after the spring thaw and give everything a thorough cleaning...possibly even replace the attachment hardware.

will we ever see a best of both worlds product?

It's all about compromises. If you have two goals at opposite ends of the spectrum, or goals that may not even be remotely related A) Go as fast as possible and B) Provide silent operation at all times, there has to be some compromise. Compromise can be built into the product, which typically dilutes the product's ability to achieve one or more goals. Or, the customer has to compromise and live with some of the product's shortcomings in certain areas (put up with a little noise because it's worth an extra second per lap at their time trial).

This situation is like any other type of product. Think about an iPad or iPhone. The customer wants the best of everything in one little package. They want a huge beautiful hi-res display, but they want it to fit in their pocket. They want it to be paper thin and weigh nothing, but they want a six core processor and a terabyte of storage space.

Each person just has to decide which compromises are best for their situation and then run with it. We will keep trying to minimize the compromises wherever we see the opportunity to do so.

[Captain Insano]

Originally Posted by FreshFRS

Essex Sprint kit gets my vote. the Light weight is awesome. you do live where you get winter conditions (i assume you will DD it in winter) the anodized coating is more susceptible to road salt then paint. i had Anodized AP calipers on my S2K that i daily drove for 4 winters in northern canada with no wear problems. we canadians use a LOT of salt up here.

Seriously thanks for posting this. I am soooo torn between ST and AP... I DD my car in IL winters and the car sees road salt. I pressure wash it literally every week in winter to get that shit off and I think it makes a huge difference from a corrosion perspective. I REALLY want to DD/track the AP sprint kit due to quality and also weight. I am a huge weight Nazi...

J Ritt from Essex can you comment on the possibility of a street oriented DD/track offering that would shave weight like the sprint kit and be less susceptible to salt corrosion. If nothing is coming I may just get the sprint kit and be more anal about cleaning it in winter. Maybe like twice a week!

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by JRitt

Each person just has to decide which compromises are best for their situation and then run with it.

This x 10^100

[CyberFormula]

I have done research on:

Stoptech
Brembo
Ap Racing (stillen)
Alcon (stasis engineering)
Wilwood
Project Mu

googling "Stoptech vs." , resulted in many votes for Stoptech as the most voted favorite for the club racer who requires cheap parts and easy replacement of brake pads. Even their street performance brake pad is considered superior because of the high heat performance ( i think it was 1300deg), compared to 750deg or less for most common street performance brake pads. However they do have a "RACE BRAKE PAD" now which costs about $290. Their street performance brake pads is very cheap $$$ for the incredible performance given.

Now reading on the Essex Ap racing, I'll have to agree that this appears to be a superior product. Rotors, and racing brake pads are cheaper in comparison to the Stoptechs. I personally would give the Sprint Ap Racing a try.

if not, a stock set up with Stoptech street performance brake pads, brake lines, Centric High carbon rotors, and Motul RBF 600 will do good as well.

Here is the $1600 for the 328mm stoptech setup.
stoptech-front-13-inch-piston-big-brake-kit-subaru-brz-scion-frs-toyota-gt86-13-p-150705404

but, if you're trackin, and replacing rotors/pads often, the AP racing kit will pay for itself over time.

[JRitt]

Originally Posted by CyberFormula

I have done research on:

Stoptech
Brembo
Ap Racing (stillen)
Alcon (stasis engineering)
Wilwood
Project Mu

googling "Stoptech vs." , resulted in many votes for Stoptech as the most voted favorite for the club racer who requires cheap parts and easy replacement of brake pads. Even their street performance brake pad is considered superior because of the high heat performance ( i think it was 1300deg), compared to 750deg or less for most common street performance brake pads. However they do have a "RACE BRAKE PAD" now which costs about $290. Their street performance brake pads is very cheap $$$ for the incredible performance given.

Now reading on the Essex Ap racing, I'll have to agree that this appears to be a superior product. Rotors, and racing brake pads are cheaper in comparison to the Stoptechs. I personally would give the Sprint Ap Racing a try.

if not, a stock set up with Stoptech street performance brake pads, brake lines, Centric High carbon rotors, and Motul RBF 600 will do good as well.

Here is the $1600 for the 328mm stoptech setup.
stoptech-front-13-inch-piston-big-brake-kit-subaru-brz-scion-frs-toyota-gt86-13-p-150705404

but, if you're trackin, and replacing rotors/pads often, the AP racing kit will pay for itself over time.

Thanks for the kind words CyberFormula, and I have a few comments to further illustrate some of the points you make. In particular, your point about the "club racer who requires cheap parts and easy replacement of brake pads." We are definitely beating StopTech at that game with our Sprint System. The reason you don't see more responses around the web about our equipment is that we have only been selling these systems on a very limited number of platforms for about 2 years. If you go look on the corvette forum, evo forum, etc. you'll see some overwhelmingly positive feedback though.

If you're going to be tracking your car, spare parts for our Sprint System are MUCH less expensive than for the StopTech setup. Let's walk through an example:

Let's say you plan on tracking the car for 3 seasons (many enthusiasts tire of a car after that period of time and move along to something new and different). We'll use a fairly conservative volume of replacement parts. Below are the pad and disc costs for our Sprint System vs. the StopTech ST40/328mm kit using some typical race pad pricing:

StopTech
5 sets of Ferodo DS1.11 for StopTech ST-40 @ $442 per set= $2,210
2 sets of StopTech 328x28 discs ($230 per disc)=$920
Total running costs for three seasons=$3,130

Essex Sprint
5 sets of Ferodo DS1.11 for AP Racing CP8350 @ $184.31= $921.55
2 sets of AP Racing 299x32mm J Hooks for our kit ($165 per disc)= $660
Total running costs for three seasons= $1581.55

Running cost difference over three seasons= $1548.45...the running costs for the StopTech setup are almost double the cost for our Sprint System. That also doesn't take into account actual wear rates. I'm confident that you'll go through spares less often with our system because of its design...thicker pads to insulate the calipers (20mm thick per side vs. 17mm), SS pistons to keep heat out of the fluid, more durable 70 vane AP Racing disc, etc. You'll also not have to worry about pad knockback. So if you go through only 4 sets of pads and 1 extra set of discs with our system, that will have a large impact on running costs as well. Those differences could pay for several sets of tires, or registration for 5 events @ $300 per event.

Again, the above estimate is what I'd consider an average number of spares if you track your car regularly during the warm months. If you go to the track more often and burn up more parts, the cost difference will be even greater. Also note, that some of the price differences on other race pad compounds aren't quite as bad, but I just used the DS1.11 since that is one of the more popular ones we recommend and sell.

Again, this is just spares. That doesn't take into account any of the other benefits of our Sprint System:

• Our Sprint system weighs at least 5 lbs. less per corner vs. StopTech (improving acceleration, cornering, braking). That's 10 lbs. less unsprung weight off the nose of the car
• The AP calipers have SS pistons to keep out heat, meaning less fluid boiling and flushing/bleeding (frequent bleeding also gets expensive and wastes a lot of time at the track)
• anti-knockback springs to keep a firm pedal
• AP Racing 70 vane heavy duty discs with crack resistant metallurgy (this is the same basic design and metallurgy that has won the 24 hours of Le Mans)
• offers the same convenient pad changing ability
• The calipers won't turn a burnt maroon color after a good thrashing
• The AP calipers have just as many or more pad options
• Essex full caliper rebuilding service- If you ever need your calipers serviced, we can do it for small fee...you don't get messy

Finally, I can't imagine resale prices being any better than what you can get with AP Racing. AP is the premium name in brakes and hold value. You'll get a nice chunk of change back when you part and sell your car.

ps...nice stable of cars CyberFormula...some real classics in the garage.

[JRitt]

Originally Posted by Captain Insano

Seriously thanks for posting this. I am soooo torn between ST and AP... I DD my car in IL winters and the car sees road salt. I pressure wash it literally every week in winter to get that shit off and I think it makes a huge difference from a corrosion perspective. I REALLY want to DD/track the AP sprint kit due to quality and also weight. I am a huge weight Nazi...

J Ritt from Essex can you comment on the possibility of a street oriented DD/track offering that would shave weight like the sprint kit and be less susceptible to salt corrosion. If nothing is coming I may just get the sprint kit and be more anal about cleaning it in winter. Maybe like twice a week!

One more thing to consider...if you are pressure washing, I don't think paint or powder coating takes very kindly to pressure washing! I remember seeing a thread about that on NSX prime a while back. Most likely you'd run into chipping and flaking.

If you planned to own your car for 3 years and run the numbers as I illustrate above, you'll realize that it would cost you less to buy a spare set of AP Racing CP8350 calipers vs. buying the StopTech kit once all long-term running costs are taken into account. CP8350's are $1100 a pair. During that time you could beat your first set of AP's to a tragic death, sell them used, buy another set, keep one set as spares, etc. No matter how you slice it you'd still come out ahead on cost.

[gmookher]

I have a similar question for JRitt, as you have done above with Stoptech cost vs Sprint costs, can you kindly do the same for costs between the SPRINT AND ENDURANCE systems over 3 seasons?

oh yeah...So as an update to this thread, I am waiting to get my car back from Vortech to better determine what my final power level will be, as a tester, I know we are tweaking a bit past the base kit specs, but I really dont know yet how much...that may help determine between the two contenders for me at this point are both Essex kits, since salted winter driving is not on this cars menu.

I'm very tempted to think the Sprint will be all I will need, tho the extra surface area and pad volume of the endurance kit seem attractive as "done with it" solution. I kinda need to better understand the NVH differences between the two. I may make the effort to go drive an ENDURANCE system equipped car before making my final answer, as that is really the direction I am leaning at this point. Even tho it costs more, on this item, cost is a secondary consideration, these are BRAKES.

I will let you know once I bust out my credit card and place the order, rest assured. Its definitely looking like Essex, again, as if their advice on the ds2500s were anything but spot on for those retaining the OE calipers. (With the cryo rotors, my setup to date is solid till I manage to fry my seals at a hpde, which I rather not, hence this thread)

[Captain Insano]

Originally Posted by JRitt

One more thing to consider...if you are pressure washing, I don't think paint or powder coating takes very kindly to pressure washing! I remember seeing a thread about that on NSX prime a while back. Most likely you'd run into chipping and flaking.

If you planned to own your car for 3 years and run the numbers as I illustrate above, you'll realize that it would cost you less to buy a spare set of AP Racing CP8350 calipers vs. buying the StopTech kit once all long-term running costs are taken into account. CP8350's are $1100 a pair. During that time you could beat your first set of AP's to a tragic death, sell them used, buy another set, keep one set as spares, etc. No matter how you slice it you'd still come out ahead on cost.

I am SOLD!

[JRitt]

I decided to take this one step further to make sure it was a fair assessment. Below is a list of pads in the AP Racing CP8350 shape and the StopTech ST-40 shape. I'll focus on race pads, since those are the ones that will be getting burned up at a fast rate. Most people probably only change street pads once every other year. Nonetheless, if you search you'll find that any street pad is still considerably cheaper for the AP Racing CP8350's.

AP Racing CP8350-AP Racing C300 Endurance= $189.84
StopTech ST-40: AP Racing C300 Endurance= $400.00
Difference=$211

AP Racing CP8350- CL Brakes RC6= $201.60
StopTech ST-40: CL Brakes RC6= $315.56
Difference= $113.96

AP Racing CP8350- Ferodo DS2500= $127.99
StopTech ST-40: Ferodo DS2500= $225.90
Difference=$97.97

AP Racing CP8350- Ferodo DS1.11= $184.31
StopTech ST-40: Ferodo DS1.11= $442.90
Difference= $258.59

AP Racing CP8350- Ferodo DSUNO= $184.31
StopTech ST-40: Ferodo DSUNO= $442.92
Difference=258.59

AP Racing CP8350- Hawk DTC70= $189.38
StopTech ST-40: Hawk DTC70= $303.25
Difference=$113.87

AP Racing CP8350- Hawk HP+= $109.81
StopTech ST-40: Hawk HP+= $201.00
Difference=$91.19

Some other popular brands
AP Racing CP8350- PFC01= $182
StopTech ST-40: PFC01= $325
Difference=$143

AP Racing CP8350- Raybestos ST43= $173
StopTech ST-40: Raybestos ST43= $289
Difference= $116

AP Racing CP8350- Pagid RS14 Black= $238
StopTech ST-40: Pagid RS14 Black= $253
Difference=$15

AP Racing CP8350- Pagid RS19 Yellow= $266
StopTech ST-40: Pagid RS19 Yellow= $329
Difference=$63

AP Racing CP8350- Porterfield R4= $115
StopTech ST-40: Porterfield R4= $178
Difference=$63

Average AP Racing CP8350 price per race pad set= $180.10
Average StopTech ST-40 price per race pad set= $308.79
Difference= Track pads for StopTech's are on average $128.69 more per set vs. the AP Racing CP8350. If you want to plug those numbers in to my overall cost example in the previous post, over 5 sets of pads that's $643.47 more expensive to support the StopTech's. That's a set of tires, just on pad cost difference across 5 sets of pads!

Finally, please note that every single pad compound that I looked up for the StopTech caliper is also available for the AP Racing CP8350, and every one of them is cheaper for the CP8350. Finally, you're getting approximately 3mm more pad puck material thickness on each side of the disc with the AP racing set (20mm vs. 17mm).