Anybody here getting that greasy "$27k" feeling?

[r4m3n]

Originally Posted by bofa

sheesh... neither his logic nor his sarcasm makes sense to me...

lol Cut me a break, 4 hurs of sleep + slammed with work and finals to study for so my "logic" didn't translate well in writing earlier today

Sheesh...tough crowd :P

[82mm 4g63]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

Exactly! My $30k baby LF-A question was strictly hypothetical and definitely shows the upper limit of value at least on this forum. It would take massively convincing marketing to push a $30k value upon the FT86 at this point, when all along they've been touting the similarity with the affordable AE86 [as tranzformer rightly pointed out]

No it wouldn't, it would take a car that was a lot more impressive on paper that also wore a badge that warranted dropping $30k on it. Sorry, but I'm not dropping $30k on a 200hp Scion even if they get the Geico gecko to run their marketing campaign.

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

Brainwashing doesn't work on smart people. Got to explain, show on paper and real world performance in stock form. As well competition on the show room from other manufacturers floor to warrant price.

Again $17-25k sports compact cars are all rolled up into one, to a consumer and enthusiast. I won't bend to TMC rules, they'll have to bend to our/market rules.

No broaden your selection there are other fun cars out there for the 17-25k range. Overlook AWD, FWD, and size.. fun is fun and you can aruge the performance of the others either.

Convertibles are premium, the reason why it cost $23k, and the fact of motorsport backed, other features, and already has a name.. tried and true. You take those things away from the Miata you got a $20k car, considering it's shared with the RX8. I'm not even trolling, I'm dead serious.

Another example, take the Genesis base coupe minus turbo, you got a FRS with more metal $17k, reduce the size to FT size which saves money but replace with aluminum parts thru-out adding money and you're back at $17k, add a yamaha head and DI you're at lets say 19k. The price of R&D is already factored into the design of the car itself. If Hyundai made a strong contender for the FRS it would be priced 18-19k and have a 1.6 turbo AND it would outsell the FRS.

Thank you. Why does the GC never get any love? Is it because it's fat?

[rifleshooter]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

First of all, fat chance. Second of all, is that really what a ~200hp, supposedly lightweight, economical to operate, rwd sports coupe is worth?
I don't think so. I also think it's unfair to ask for such a low price point. I think around $21-$23k is a reasonable average MSRP for this car. Obviously, yeah, I'd be stoked if it could be had for $20k, but c'mon, the TC costs that. Put a little perspective on what you are paying for.

For the average MSRP to be $21-23k, then it HAS to start at $19,899. Windows, cruise, locks, and air will run $2500 and you probably won't be able to buy the car with just those options on it. My Cruiser started at $26k... and ended at $30k LOL no matter how many I looked at on the lot.

[ft86Fan]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

First of all, fat chance. Second of all, is that really what a ~200hp, supposedly lightweight, economical to operate, rwd sports coupe is worth?
I don't think so. I also think it's unfair to ask for such a low price point. I think around $21-$23k is a reasonable average MSRP for this car. Obviously, yeah, I'd be stoked if it could be had for $20k, but c'mon, the TC costs that. Put a little perspective on what you are paying for.

+1. You get what you pay for. On paper this car is definitely worth at least $25K. I personally won't mind paying more for a better car. Its not possible for Toyota to make any money to sell a quality car with this kind of spec for under $20K. People, be reasonable.

[Mari0]

Originally Posted by rifleshooter

For the average MSRP to be $21-23k, then it HAS to start at $19,899. Windows, cruise, locks, and air will run $2500 and you probably won't be able to buy the car with just those options on it. My Cruiser started at $26k... and ended at $30k LOL no matter how many I looked at on the lot.

Those are all standard on the tC (and the other scions), so I am guessing they will be on the fr-s, as well. And actually, you can buy a completely stock scion. I still doubt it will be 20k, because, as the other person mentioned above, the tC is that much. I'm hoping that it will be around 22-23k though, but we won't know for another 5+ months.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

First of all, fat chance. Second of all, is that really what a ~200hp, supposedly lightweight, economical to operate, rwd sports coupe is worth?
I don't think so. I also think it's unfair to ask for such a low price point. I think around $21-$23k is a reasonable average MSRP for this car. Obviously, yeah, I'd be stoked if it could be had for $20k, but c'mon, the TC costs that. Put a little perspective on what you are paying for.

I think that this is what it has to be. Any more and all it will end up doing is selling tC's.

Joe Average and Suzy Secretary at a Scion dealer looking at tC vs FR-S.

tC has a bit more L's (bigger motor)
FR-S has a bit more HP's (20ish more hp)
They have the same number of doors.
Same number of gears auto or manual
FR-S may have a few more mpg's.
They have different WD's (whatever those are...) ie, they don't care FWD or RWD.

So to Mr Average and Ms Secretary, taking all the dynamics stuff we talk about out of the picture, the cars are VERY similar. (Maybe the tC's torquier 2AR motor actually feels faster in their test drive.) Maybe they like the FR-S' looks better. But if it's $25k??? $6000 more for looks? To the average consumer that i makes no sense, and the tC will get the sale. Then the FR-S will get canceled due to crappy sales.

Start at $21k to succeed.

[82mm 4g63]

Originally Posted by ft86Fan

+1. You get what you pay for. On paper this car is definitely worth at least $25K. I personally won't mind paying more for a better car. Its not possible for Toyota to make any money to sell a quality car with this kind of spec for under $20K. People, be reasonable.

What paper are you looking at? There is no paper just ball park figures. Akio strapping his ass in a car and taking it for a spin around the Ring doesn't do anything for me as far as affecting how wide I'll open my wallet.

I'll feel more comfortable saying what this car is worth when I see actual numbers. Nothing I've seen thus far warrants a $25k sticker.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

What paper are you looking at? There is no paper just ball park figures. Akio strapping his ass in a car and taking it for a spin around the Ring doesn't do anything for me as far as affecting how wide I'll open my wallet.

I'll feel more comfortable saying what this car is worth when I see actual numbers. Nothing I've seen thus far warrants a $25k sticker.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by rifleshooter

For the average MSRP to be $21-23k, then it HAS to start at $19,899. Windows, cruise, locks, and air will run $2500 and you probably won't be able to buy the car with just those options on it. My Cruiser started at $26k... and ended at $30k LOL no matter how many I looked at on the lot.

Originally Posted by Mari0

Those are all standard on the tC (and the other scions), so I am guessing they will be on the fr-s, as well. And actually, you can buy a completely stock scion. I still doubt it will be 20k, because, as the other person mentioned above, the tC is that much. I'm hoping that it will be around 22-23k though, but we won't know for another 5+ months.

What ^he said. Thank you very much.

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

Why does the GC never get any love? Is it because it's fat?

Yes.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

What paper are you looking at? There is no paper just ball park figures. Akio strapping his ass in a car and taking it for a spin around the Ring doesn't do anything for me as far as affecting how wide I'll open my wallet.

I'll feel more comfortable saying what this car is worth when I see actual numbers. Nothing I've seen thus far warrants a $25k sticker.

+1 couldn't agree more.

[Praetendere]

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

Why does the GC never get any love? Is it because it's fat?

That, and it's a Hyundai. I just can't ever picture owning one on purpose.

[switchlanez]

Originally Posted by Dimman

I think that this is what it has to be. Any more and all it will end up doing is selling tC's.

Joe Average and Suzy Secretary at a Scion dealer looking at tC vs FR-S.

tC has a bit more L's (bigger motor)
FR-S has a bit more HP's (20ish more hp)
They have the same number of doors.
Same number of gears auto or manual
FR-S may have a few more mpg's.
They have different WD's (whatever those are...) ie, they don't care FWD or RWD.

So to Mr Average and Ms Secretary, taking all the dynamics stuff we talk about out of the picture, the cars are VERY similar. (Maybe the tC's torquier 2AR motor actually feels faster in their test drive.) Maybe they like the FR-S' looks better. But if it's $25k??? $6000 more for looks? To the average consumer that i makes no sense, and the tC will get the sale. Then the FR-S will get canceled due to crappy sales.

Start at $21k to succeed.

Oh how I wish. I agree tCs will sell more so Scion will simply make less FR-Ss than tCs. Their analysts calculate the different price points and the demands each will garner. This gives them an array supply curves intersecting an array of demand curves, then they calculate which intersection maximizes profit.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by switchlanez

Oh how I wish. I agree tCs will sell more so Scion will simply make less FR-Ss than tCs. Their analysts calculate the different price points and the demands each will garner. This gives them an array supply curves intersecting an array of demand curves, then they calculate which intersection maximizes profit.

Um, could you dumb it down a bit for me please?

What I was getting at, is for the 'average' buyer there is not a lot of difference between the two vehicles 'on paper'. So people that are saying $25k for the FR-S when the $19k tC looks 'the same' for Joe Average and Suzie Secretary will mean a quick death from poor sales for the FR-S, n my opinion.

There's been a lot of competition comparison here but none so far have really looked at how the pricing between the tC and FR-S will play out to someone looking for a sporty coupe and not super hyped about the dynamics. Big difference is if they don't like the FR-S, it's easier to check out the tC beside it, than to drive over to the Ford or Mini dealer.

[switchlanez]

^Sorry, got lazy there and threw some abstract jargon at you. Maybe I can explain by numbers.

Say it costs Toyota $18k to make/sell each FR-S and $15k for each tC. Let's say the tC sells for $20k at the dealer and the FR-S sticker price is variable (see below). Profits for varying FR-S price points could be:

[Case 1: FR-S = $23k]
Projected demand: 9,000 FR-S vs. 5,000 tC
FR-S profit: $45,000,000
tC profit: $35,000,000
Total profit: $70,000,000

[Case 2: FR-S = $25k]
Projected demand: 7,000 FR-S vs. 7,000 tC
FR-S profit: $49,000,000
tC profit: $35,000,000
Total profit: $84,000,000

[Case 3: FR-S = $27k]
Projected demand: 4,000 FR-S vs. 7,500 tC
FR-S profit: $36,000,000
tC profit: $37,500,000
Total profit: $73,000,000

I hope my demand numbers make sense. I basically thought the lower the FR-S price, the more it will steal tC sales [Case 1]. But if Toyota prices the FR-S too high they'll definitely sell more tCs but barely any FR-Ss [Case 3]. In both cases 1 and 3 they will profit, but the sweet spot which maximizes profit is in Case 2. It's a super simplification but hope it makes sense.

A quick death from poor sales of the FR-S won't happen because Toyota is smart enough to avoid that... they plug in a price and their analyst (most likely a computer) automatically chugs out how many units to produce to still be profitable then do the whole profit optimization thing (like I tried to do above) when compared against the car market. For sure tC sales will be lower next year so they will cut back on its supply to exactly meet projected demand and profit from it.