Who is happy the engine will be Naturally Aspirated?

[Neutral_Eyes]

I'm content with NA, especially now that Yamaha is on board somewhere. Turbo would be nice to have the coolant and oil capabilities built in, but overall I think the NA will be safer for a brand new launch model. Works for the S2000 and Miata.

I'm not about to buy a brand new car and immediately start drilling into it while under warranty to toss a turbo in or swap engines. If everything with the car is in order, I'll drive it until the warranty is up, then maybe slap a Rotrex on it, give it a nice set of coilvers and sticky tires and call it good. Or trade it in on the next hottest thing out there.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Neutral_Eyes

I'm content with NA, especially now that Yamaha is on board somewhere. Turbo would be nice to have the coolant and oil capabilities built in, but overall I think the NA will be safer for a brand new launch model. Works for the S2000 and Miata.

I'm not about to buy a brand new car and immediately start drilling into it while under warranty to toss a turbo in or swap engines. If everything with the car is in order, I'll drive it until the warranty is up, then maybe slap a Rotrex on it, give it a nice set of coilvers and sticky tires and call it good. Or trade it in on the next hottest thing out there.

Plus being NA never stopped people from going turbo themselves.

[82mm 4g63]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Plus being NA never stopped people from going turbo themselves.

It's stopped me. lol. Generally, the extra money needed to safely add boost to an NA motor is a deterrent. From a pure dollar-to-horsepower stance you get a better return on your investment starting FI and upgrading, than you do slapping on an afterthought turbo kit from random tuner. The motor wasn't meant to handle boost, usually yields bad results over an extended period of time.

Granted at a certain point every engine needs to be rebuilt to withstand more power, but a motor designed to handle boost will typically put that off longer.

Just my $.02

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Driftster

Extra 3.00?

Considering copper plugs run 2 bucks and iridiums run 8...There's more than 3...
2..Brake fluid isn't the issue..

you're missing the Toyota brand Transmission fluid, toyota brand gear oil, toyota brand motor oil

all things that cost 3x-4x the shelf price of standard brands..
all things that can void a warranty if found..

So no i don't want to go spend 200dollars on fluids and another 40 on plugs filters and the like just to do routine maintenance on a f'ing 20,000 dollar car.

That's ridiculous..

If this car was WORTH it maybe...but no one would spend that on a miata, or a cooper S, or any car south of the profit margin.

This is like the dip-sciets that feel the need to use Redline and full synthetic fluids in their Camry

but feel free to throw more oney at crap quality 5w30 for the sake of a warranty agreement.

as for this car being legendary from boost..
Lol Just like the EZ39?

Asymmetrical rods =/= boost

90mm stroke =/= high revving performance NA motor.

And revs are harder on a motor than boost.

I'm predicting neither in the final motor.

[serialk11r]

What he meant was, he isn't expecting 90mm stroke, since you can't really get much horsepower out of it if it doesn't rev.

With regards to your servicing stuff, how often do you even change spark plugs? A few more dollars * 4 cylinders every like 75k miles is not a big deal...

Since you're clamoring for a turbo, have you considered that the fuel economy penalty, even with a fancy valvetrain such as Valvematic, would likely cost more than the cost of all these so called extra costs? And if you're complaining about needing to use Toyota brand fluids and parts, how does that not apply for your own dream motor?

[[es vi: eks]]

Originally Posted by Driftster

Lol Just like the EZ39?

EZ36

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Driftster

Extra 3.00?

Considering copper plugs run 2 bucks and iridiums run 8...There's more than 3...
2..Brake fluid isn't the issue..

you're missing the Toyota brand Transmission fluid, toyota brand gear oil, toyota brand motor oil

all things that cost 3x-4x the shelf price of standard brands..
all things that can void a warranty if found..

So no i don't want to go spend 200dollars on fluids and another 40 on plugs filters and the like just to do routine maintenance on a f'ing 20,000 dollar car.

That's ridiculous..

If this car was WORTH it maybe...but no one would spend that on a miata, or a cooper S, or any car south of the profit margin.

This is like the dip-sciets that feel the need to use Redline and full synthetic fluids in their Camry

but feel free to throw more oney at crap quality 5w30 for the sake of a warranty agreement.

as for this car being legendary from boost..
Lol Just like the EZ39?

Asymmetrical rods =/= boost

How many time a yr are you planning to change out spark plugs? You think sports car require to change spark plugs 4~6 times or something? I have semi-racing spark plugs in my Impreza and freak, it sure lasting me near 2 yrs.

WTF is "Toyota brand Transmission fluid, toyota brand gear oil, toyota brand motor oil"? & you know how many times you actually change tran & lsd fluids in owning the car? RARELY for freaking DD car! Unless you freaking make this car into full track car.

Scare of voiding the warranty? Cuz using different fluids and all other bs? Then you should be more worry when this car actually makes turbo ver. What the hell you gonna do? Can't even install turbo timer due to voiding the warranty. You can't do nothing to the car. Turbo model have stricter warranty than NA (there are certain exceptions GT3 vs GT2).

As for "Asymmetrical rods =/= boost", where in the hell you get that bs? Yes, asymmetrical rods are bitch when it comes to boost more than some other engine design, but that doesn't mean they can't boost. Ppl do over 1000hp w H4 & H6. Even old EG33 can boost up to 450 w swapping pistons & rods to STi's. What, want stock? Porsche 911 GT2, Carrera Turbo, 911 Turbo, STI S series, they sure have enough hp along w good tq line.

Don't bring false info

[Dave-ROR]

It depends.

If I buy an FR-S/whatever it'll be for a mix of daily driving and autocross. It will rarely (if ever) see track use as I have an ITR I enjoy driving on track, and a race car, so even the ITR rarely sees track time.

For daily driver I like both NA and turbo cars. For autocross and track (not drag strip) I prefer NA just because in my experience they have more linear powerbands and are more predictable.

I also like high revving engines and don't mind the lack of low end torque. With higher redlines you just make up for that in gearing, so the end result of wheel torque (actual, including the gearing, not what shows up on a dyno) is just fine.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Driftster

Considering copper plugs run 2 bucks and iridiums run 8...There's more than 3...

You can run either. The engine will work with either. You will just replace the coppers more often.

you're missing the Toyota brand Transmission fluid, toyota brand gear oil, toyota brand motor oil

None of which Toyota makes. None of which Toyota will require. They will suggest/recommend using the Toyota re-branded fluids for profit.

Very few people, and practically zero enthusiasts, will go to the dealer to buy most of those fluids, with the possible exception of trans fluid, if it works well. Otherwise, stick with fluids that meet the standards Toyota/Subaru lists. I change fluids in my cars more often than most, but even with 6-12k trans/diff flushes, it's not overly expensive. I flush trans fluid mostly because it breaks down and shifts get too notchy. Engine oil can be extended also, just do so intelligently and get oil analysis performed on old oil until you get to a good OCI.

all things that cost 3x-4x the shelf price of standard brands..
all things that can void a warranty if found..

Mobil 1 costs ~7-8 bucks a quart now. If you honestly believe that Toyota oil will cost 21-32 bucks a quart... well not sure what to tell you. Hell even Castrol GTX is $4-5 a quart here now.

Also, none of that will void the warranty. To void a warranty claim Toyota would have to prove (not say, be able to prove) that the non-Toyota SUGGESTED oil caused the problem. Now that's possible, if for example it required a GL-5 fluid and you used a GL-4 fluid. And of course it's possible if the condition of the oil, tested, shows that the oil was used for say, 50,000 miles in the engine and was never changed, etc..

So no i don't want to go spend 200dollars on fluids and another 40 on plugs filters and the like just to do routine maintenance on a f'ing 20,000 dollar car.

Yeah, because maintenance is bad right? Why maintain a car after all, it's only 20 thousand dollars. Or 30 thousand, whatever it becomes. It's basically a Yugo, just run veg oil in it.

If this car was WORTH it maybe...but no one would spend that on a miata, or a cooper S, or any car south of the profit margin.

Huh? What decides if a car is "worth it"? The car has to be x valve before you'll spend a couple hundred a year on routine maintenance? And some Miata people are crazy with maintenance so your theory doesn't hold water anyways.

This is like the dip-sciets that feel the need to use Redline and full synthetic fluids in their Camry

Or maybe they want to run 7,500 mile OCIs and have the UOAs to back up that it works fine, but oil at half price are showing more wear materials at 3,000 miles. Damn those crazy Camry owners!

but feel free to throw more oney at crap quality 5w30 for the sake of a warranty agreement.

Again, warranty agreement doesn't apply here.

[Neutral_Eyes]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

And some Miata people are crazy with maintenance so your theory doesn't hold water anyways.

I just spent about $200 on maintenance products for my Miata, but it should last me until the FT-86 comes out. Even with AMSOIL oil and filter, Redline trans and diff. fluid, air and fuel filter, Super Blue brake fluid, and a set of iridium plugs with wires - $200 for all that.

Now, the FT-86 might have some more difficult spark plugs to replace compared to the Miata, but I don't expect the prices to be all that different. And if it's worth it to me to do on my $8000 car, I'd sure as hell do it on a brand new one.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by Driftster

Basically they're building this to perform like a "slightly better" diesel...sans the glo plugs and ease of later fuel mapping.

[chulooz]

Well said Dave ROR, most of this stuff is pretty typical procedure for cars like this.

[Dave-ROR]

Christ, long post.

Originally Posted by Driftster

The engine is not guarenteed to work efficiently with both and you know that...For one it's direct injected so lord knows if the pistons atomization flow controller in the dish will work well with a standard standard copper plug

It's a friggen spark plug. I've used both interchangable on stock and well modified cars, from Hondas to 911s for years.

Well guess what i said? Toyota Brand Fluid...I didn't say Toyota's very own formula of oil from the secret toyota ester lab..

Agreed. That wasn't the primary point of your statement and you smartly avoided replying to your original point.

Do you have ANY evidence of this what so ever? Seriously, what is this going off of other than "I know a guy who knows a guy" What can make you say "few people will go to the dealer for an oil change or trans oil change" Are you really going to sit here and say that most consumers are going to buy this brand new car......and change the transmission filter and fluid and diff fluid themselves?
Do you read the things you post?

I don't know of anyone that goes to the dealer that also owns a performance car for anything outside of warranty work. I'm sure there are some, and I don't have exact numbers, but no enthusiasts that I know go to the dealer for things like fluid changes. Most consumers go to the dealer, most also buy Accords and Camrys. Neither are a performance car and performance car buyers, in my experience knowing several hundred of them from car events and racing don't tend to use the dealer for maint like fluid changes. That's my experience, perhaps yours is different. :shrug:

[quote[I'm well aware of control labs capable of analyzing oils at intervals..but the bottom line comes down to, it's a NEW car..and unless you don't give a rats ass about the warranty on a car that has a brand new engine format which for all discussion purposes has been unproven in long term usage....[/quote]

Yeah, boxer motors from subaru (recast or not) are brand new.

And as far as fluids, subaru people will attest to how expensive subaru brand motor oil is, so if that's a prereq we're talking 50+ on oil alone that is not even a true synthetic not only that, the FB20 has an additional liter of oil capacity over the EJ25T making it a ~6+ qt job so we're really talking almost 60 dollars for warranty keeping oil...

At $60, you are talking about 2x the price of Castrol GTX, without the filter (not sure if you were including the filter or not). Still not 3-4x the cost.

If it's Toyota branded fluids you have to remember that Toyota brand oil contains an additional additive making it incompatable with other brand synthetics...This means sludge if you mix mobile one..

LOL!!

As this Toyota sales device quotes

Yep, Honda fluids say the same. Just had one rebuilt at 216k miles (which outside of original fill never used Honda fluid), perfectly clean, even left the original bearings in it as they were in spec. Motor performed extremely well in a 24 hour race until the clutch blew apart. I guess I didn't use Honda clutch/brake fluid.. DAMNIT!

Nice contribution there bucko....

Again, Honda fluids say the same. They still aren't made by Honda or Toyota.

This engine, schematics wize..rivals a Ka24de with LESS displacement...

<snip>
will be economical..I wouldn't be surprised to see mid 30's or higher on the highway as long as it doesn't come with idiot-gearing (not putting it past FHI)...

What did I post that referenced any of that??

That's wonderful that you take improper care of your vehicle, GOOD for you, I'm sure this car is right up your alley.
I service my car at the correct intervals because i expect my car to be in tip top shape at all times, but if carbon marred sh*t sticks is your idea if good plug wear/usage by all means go for it..Hell you should go lease a Ferrari, i'm sure maintenance won't cost a thing for you with your plugs staying in the car for 2 years and all.
Even better when you think youve got a "performance vehicle" or "tuner vehicle" like the FT86 is supposed to be, oh i can only pray more kids think like you so there will be a market surge in grenaded FR-S's because people didn't understand "why they needed to change the oil so frequently"

How is my vehicle improperly maintained again? My engine has zero carbon, head is very clean, bottom end just has normal carbon, leakdown numbers of 5% or so after 160k on one motor (that I've owned since new) and a little less on another car that I've owned for the last 20k of it's 130k life. Compression is perfect on both. None of my cars has ever left me stranded either. I should be surprised since I'm obviously so bad at keeping them maintained.

I tend to change oil around 5-6k. I'm sure you know more than me, and more than people who make their living in the oil industry though.

On your DD i believe most recommendations for gear oil are 15,000 miles...so 2-3 times a year avg...Transmission fluid and filters roughly every 2 diff changes...So 1-2 times a year...So no that's not very "rare" and if you do happen to track your car, AT ALL that frequency increases dramatically..Purpose built track car? hardly kid, it's called car care...

What DD? And you drive 30-45k/yr? I'm going to say that a 15k change interval does not equal 2-3 times a year for MOST people. And I have a race car and have had multiple track cars. Yes, oil gets changed before and after events/races.

I see you've never owned a new car.. that's alright, many people have not. How do you plan on making your put put engine a little more enjoyable it being N/A and pretty gutless? An intake..easy to remove..Exhaust? Better go factory for the welds not to show and void warranty...Or i suppose you're going to rip the entire valve train apart and do some major work, you
know the type of work required to make n/a cars go? Guess what...THATS what kills a warranty...

I've owned multiple new cars actually, so I'm not sure how you "see" that I never have. One of the cars I still have I bought new. Others I've bought and sold. I keep the cars I keep because I enjoy driving them and I've sold other cars because I didn't enjoy them as much, or just got bored with them. I have no interest in making cars go fast, I got over that after my early 20s. I drive and setup cars for my own enjoyment, not to win drag races. And by law the manufacturer has to PROVE that a modification caused the failure. Yes, that's easy to prove if you turn up boost and melt a piston, or put a large cam in, and adjust the cam to a point where it slams a valve into a piston, etc. And most owners wouldn't fight it if the car was modified, hell I wouldn't even try a warranty claim in that situation.

Should i worry about a turbocharged car? No not at all. Why you ask? because multiple

<snip>

some relevance to ANYTHING that's been said?
Go ahead and re-read the first part of the post

As far as I can tell none of that drivel was in reference to anything I posted... this forum software doesn't include nested quotes so it's hard to sort out multi quotes..

No, toyota doesn't have to prove that "non suggest oil was the cause of the problem" They only have to show any that the car was used in a manner NOT in agreement with the warranty. The same process that removed warranty repair on Ford Raptor trucks bent frames, which is CLEARLY a structural problem on the truck and a flaw in the trucks design, however if there is any sign of non-correalated mileage/tire wear...Not covered, any mysterious wear on any of the pedals etc etc....
They don't have to find a direct link to the problem, because to them improper oil usage....can hinder the engines ability to filter out contaminants lowering it's efficiency meaning there is less power to spin the accessory pulleys meaning the alternator isn't running in spec with production methods..therefore it's the "oils fault" that you tail light housing has a hole melted in it from the bulb..THAT'S how it works..

True to a point. They can claim abuse, negligence, etc but it still has to be proven. Jumping a Raptor and bending the frame is abuse.

Denying a hole in the lens because of oil? LOL good shit. I give you credit on coming up with this stuff.

[Ryephile]

In Summary for Driftster:

#1: Cannot afford to maintain an N/A car, but turbo is no problem since it doesn't require premium fuel
#1b: Cannot afford to maintain any car with "expensive" fluids, but buying a plethora of aftermarket products is not only easy, it's required
#2: Is sick of being bent over at the dealership for "voiding" his warranty
#3: Was involved in the Ford Raptor off-road excursion where he bent all the frames of the trucks involved
#4: KNOWS how it works.

Thanks for the laugh. Since you don't want an N/A engine anyway, don't let the thread hit you in the arse on the way out.