Base Cayman vs BRZ

[unhappymeal]

Originally Posted by venturaII

If the US (and the rest of the world) still used emissions standards from 1999, I don't think Subaru would have any problem matching the S2000's output at all. In fact, it might potentially surpass it, given almost 20 additional years of learning and tricks. Along the same lines, I'd argue that Honda could never build the F20/F22 today with the same power output but still meet 2018 noise and emissions standards.

They probably could, it just have no business case. Ford was able to do something similar with the Voodoo, but that probably wasn't horrifically expensive since it started off as a (mass produced) Coyote.

In contrast, Honda does not have a high output NA engine being sold with the economies of scale of the Mustang GT and Ford F150 to build off of.

[r_rated]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

^^ Fully agree.


By the way, Porsche guys should make someday a few lessons about modifications. Plenum and TB are somehow forbidden words over here

Not "needed" on a Porsche but significant mods for cayman - TB upgrade is an OEM part and the plenum is of way better quality than oem. Modding all cars is different.

On my 911 for example I have Headers, Plenum, filters and tune for my power mods. Thats 7K for ~40bhp.... Catback is another 6K but does nothing for power regardless of anyone's marketing material. Power is expensive on these cars. The 40bhp is insignificant in relation to the new "power under the curve" and throttle response improvements on an already stellar platform. Modding for "power" is a losing proposition on any NA Porsche. Either buy a boosted one or something else if you want something to brag about your dyno sheet over the internet. BUT, my 440bhp convertible does a 11.36 1/4 mile at 124mph... the power is extremely efficient. Also, all that time means is I can aim the car since launch control does all the work and no driver skill required. It is a mountain carver and cigar lounge for me not a track car.

The new boosted Porsches are ridiculously fast and moddable... I'm an NA lover but was looking at a twinscrew Cosworth blower for the 86 when I got distracted with another car.... still have a soft spot in my heart for an 86 though

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by venturaII

If the US (and the rest of the world) still used emissions standards from 1999, I don't think Subaru would have any problem matching the S2000's output at all. In fact, it might potentially surpass it, given almost 20 additional years of learning and tricks. Along the same lines, I'd argue that Honda could never build the F20/F22 today with the same power output but still meet 2018 noise and emissions standards.

I'm not so sure. Direct Injection is a pretty good power boost and the Kseries engines made their power without that.

BTW direct injection, while good for power and fuel efficiency, is pretty bad for the environment. It creates soot-like particle matter similar to that of modern diesel engines, which is linked to lung cancer and asthma in humans. Some governments are so obsessed with CO2 emissions that they don't seem to care about some actual direct health impact harmful emissions.

Ever see a white modern car that hasn't been washed in a while? Good chance you'll see soot on the bumper near the exhaust pipe.

[Yardjass]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

Emissions and fuel economy standards were much different back then.

Originally Posted by venturaII

If the US (and the rest of the world) still used emissions standards from 1999, I don't think Subaru would have any problem matching the S2000's output at all. In fact, it might potentially surpass it, given almost 20 additional years of learning and tricks. Along the same lines, I'd argue that Honda could never build the F20/F22 today with the same power output but still meet 2018 noise and emissions standards.

I'm not following how that matters at all. In the face of these stricter standards, you can now get a V6 in a pickup or pony car that rivals the v8's from a decade or two ago. Dodge just released the most powerful mass production v8 ever produced and in general, new vehicles of all categories are getting more powerful at a rather impressive rate. The small sports car category quite frankly, seems to be one of the few categories that isn't following this trend.

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

I didn't say Subaru could necessarily engineer a *flat four* with equivalent efficiency - motor configurations all have different strengths/weaknesses - my point was rather that different constraints and design decisions impact the overall efficiency/output of an engine system. It's not because we're 'going in reverse' with engine technology (as someone mentioned in the thread), quite the opposite.

Mentioning a company that for the time being, basically has flat four motors in all of their cars tends to lead everyone to believe that anything they would make would be a flat four. It is true you never technically said flat four though, and the rumor mill says we might get to see something different in the next WRX.

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

Mentioning a company that for the time being, basically has flat four motors in all of their cars tends to lead everyone to believe that anything they would make would be a flat four. It is true you never technically said flat four though, and the rumor mill says we might get to see something different in the next WRX.

Ugh will be a sad day if they drop their flat motors

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

Mentioning a company that for the time being, basically has flat four motors in all of their cars tends to lead everyone to believe that anything they would make would be a flat four. It is true you never technically said flat four though, and the rumor mill says we might get to see something different in the next WRX.

The next WRX will be built on the new standard platform (the 17 Impreza one). The new platform is very specifically designed around the boxer engine. The probability of them putting anything else in it is very, very low. There may be a new engine but it will be a boxer of some form.

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

I'm not following how that matters at all. In the face of these stricter standards, you can now get a V6 in a pickup or pony car that rivals the v8's from a decade or two ago.

Well, you're comparing motors then and now which are light years apart in technology and output. A comparison between an F20/22 and an FA20 is far more a comparison of equal technologies, cylinder layout aside (and really irrelevant), than a new 3.5 - 4 liter motor with 12+ compression, 4 valves/cyl, modern engine management, etc. versus a 8.7:1, cast iron pushrod lump from 1986 which made power from displacement, primarily. The ever tightening noose of emissions standards makes it progressively more difficult to extract power while still burning clean...the fact that many manufacturers are going to forced induction to achieve a desired power level rather than doing so through rpms highlights that. It's much easier to make a motor run clean within a ~5000 rpm operating range (or even 6500 like ours) than an 8000+ rpm one, at equivalent power output. Likewise, I believe making the numbers the F20 made in 1999 would make the motor less likely or impossible to pass modern emissions requirements. Honda has dropped vtec recently and gone to forced induction for this very reason (along with others).

[r_rated]

Who cares about the new WRX platform. It's not a sportscar comparable to a cayman or BRZ.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by r_rated

Who cares about the new WRX platform. It's not a sportscar comparable to a cayman or BRZ.

It was brought up in reference to available or future engines which could be used in "sports cars" in which case it is totally relevant.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by r_rated

Who cares about the new WRX platform. It's not a sportscar comparable to a cayman or BRZ.

Many Subaru fans would not like this. They grew up with the idea that the WRX and the WRX STI were the sports cars. Now they don't accept that the BRZ is on the same or even a better level. They see it just as a fun to drive car. Some of them they don't even consider it is worth to modify the BRZ apart from the torque dip.

[WolfpackS2k]

The WRX and/or STI has never been a SPORTS car. It's a performance car, and there is a difference. So that's unfortunate for them.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I'm not so sure. Direct Injection is a pretty good power boost and the Kseries engines made their power without that.

BTW direct injection, while good for power and fuel efficiency, is pretty bad for the environment. It creates soot-like particle matter similar to that of modern diesel engines, which is linked to lung cancer and asthma in humans. Some governments are so obsessed with CO2 emissions that they don't seem to care about some actual direct health impact harmful emissions.

Ever see a white modern car that hasn't been washed in a while? Good chance you'll see soot on the bumper near the exhaust pipe.

I was going to call bullshit, but hey, TIL
For anybody else interested:
http://articles.sae.org/13624/

I presume this is one of the advantages to Toyota's D4S.

[bfrank1972]

Oh please, can we start another "what qualifies as a sports car" thread?

[r_rated]

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

Oh please, can we start another "what qualifies as a sports car" thread?

HINT: lots of extra weight and 4 doors don't qualify