200hp / 2700lbs - Really?

[Jordo!]

Originally Posted by cyde01

says who? why is the 240sx in such demand as a used car despite being old and janky? why has the miata community clamored for years for a miata coupe? if there is a market for cars such as the miata and the elise/exige, which all put an emphasis on lightweight and handling as opposed to straight line power, there is a market for the ft. otherwise this forum wouldn't be so large and active for a car that doesn't even exist yet.

Yeah, there's such an overwhelming demand that Nissan canned it's plans to bring it back on the market -- the fools!

The Miata is in a class by itself at this point, even beheading the MR2 and S2K (apparently, there can be only one). Why? Beats me. Great car; just needs a "no homo" bumper sticker

Anyway, the FT-86 will be a 2+2 sports coupe -- it is not poised to steal business from Miata.

In fact, it's being marketed as a drift car -- ya know, like the new Mustang... whoops.

The Elise can do the 1/4 mile in like 13.x seconds -- that's not under powered. Everyone's getting excited at the prospect of a 14-15 second car because it will turn and brake -- that's not going to get a lot of kids excited in America.

Now if you don't care about it selling in the US, fair enough, but I live here, so I do.

[cyde01]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

Yeah, there's such an overwhelming demand that Nissan canned it's plans to bring it back on the market -- the fools!

go try and buy a used 240sx for a reasonable price and see what i'm talking about. the 240sx IS underpowered stock and yet they're impossible to find at a reasonable price. and i guarantee you when the ft-86 sells well nissan will look like a fool for canning it's plans for a new 2 liter coupe.

Originally Posted by Jordo!

Anyway, the FT-86 will be a 2+2 sports coupe -- it is not poised to steal business from Miata.

of course not, but there are many, MANY people who like the miata but want a 2+2 coupe. those are the people who will buy this car.

Originally Posted by Jordo!

The Elise can do the 1/4 mile in like 13.x seconds -- that's not under powered. Everyone's getting excited at the prospect of a 14-15 second car because it will turn and brake -- that's not going to get a lot of kids excited in America.

the idea that any sports car with a 14-15 quarter mile won't sell is ridiculous, imo. the elise R actually does the 1/4 mile in 14 flat, and it obviously has a strong fanbase. the s2000 had a 14+ quarter mile and sold well for it's first 6+ years in the US, even though it was imo seriously overpriced. if they had actually done a model change after 6 years and it wasn't so overpriced i'm positive sales would have remained strong to this day.

[Mouse]

Originally Posted by zigzagz94

I'm sorry I don't understand what the point of your statement is? You yourself have just said that the NC Miata is based off a shortened RX-8 platform and so was the Kabura.

Or maybe you were assuming the Kabura was the same size as an RX-8 except it had a miata 2.0l engine?
If so you're completely wrong:

NC Miata:
wheelbase: 91.7 inch
Length: 157.3-158.3 inches
width: 67.7 inches

Kabura concept:
wheelbase: 100.4
Length: 159.4
width: 70.1

RX-8:
wheelbase: 106.4
Length: 174.2-176
width: 69.7

FT-86II:
wheelbase: 101.18
length: 166.7
width: 70.6

As you can see the Kabura was much closer in size (length, wheelbase) to a miata than it was a rx-8 and it was a parts bin concept using many of the miatas components including engine and transmission.

When the concept first came out it supposedly had a rotary and was running a 3+1 seating arrangement inside. I was completely off on that one.

[cyde01]

Originally Posted by Mouse

When the concept first came out it supposedly had a rotary and was running a 3+1 seating arrangement inside. I was completely off on that one.

nope, it was never claimed to have a rotary. it had the inline 4 mzr engine. zigzagz and i should know, before we were here we were members of the kabura forum lol

[Mouse]

I stand corrected.

[zigzagz94]

Originally Posted by cyde01

nope, it was never claimed to have a rotary. it had the inline 4 mzr engine. zigzagz and i should know, before we were here we were members of the kabura forum lol

:happy0180:

Originally Posted by Mouse

I stand corrected

You're not totally wrong: the concept was a unique 3+1 seating arrangement and also had a semi-third door that slid back into the rear quarter panel on the passenger side to allow easier access to the full size rear seat.

All of those things were very "concepty" though and probably would not have made it to production. The actual production model more than likely would have been a standard 2+2 although many of us liked the 3+1 version.

Never had a rotary though

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

Yeah, there's such an overwhelming demand that Nissan canned it's plans to bring it back on the market -- the fools!

In fact......

Originally Posted by Jordo!

The Miata is in a class by itself at this point, even beheading the MR2 and S2K (apparently, there can be only one). Why? Beats me. Great car; just needs a "no homo" bumper sticker

S2K = too expensive, MR-2 = 0 practicality.

Originally Posted by Jordo!

Anyway, the FT-86 will be a 2+2 sports coupe -- it is not poised to steal business from Miata.

In fact if you check out the Miata/MX-5 forums, a lot of the ppl there are excited over this car. An of quoted fact is that on any given weekend, more mazdas a roadraced than any other brand of car. The Miata makes up a HUGE portion of that stat.

Originally Posted by Jordo!

In fact, it's being marketed as a drift car -- ya know, like the new Mustang... whoops.

Ugh... yeah. About that.......

[tachi1247]

In regards to the original thread, I think that eventually there will be 2 engine choices. Based on what I've read/seen the introductory model is going to be normally aspirated and will be somewhere between 170 hp and 200. This seems realistic albeit very disappointing from an enthusiast's perspective. For $25k I would expect to have a minimum of 250hp.

I believe that later on the car will get a turbo variant and some suspension mods, rims, etc and a $30k price tag. People are shooting this down saying that it would be too expensive to develop a second engine option, but it is almost a guarantee that this car is going to share the engine with the next generation Impreza and turbo charged WRX version. Subaru is not a large car company and relative to the market doesn't sell a lot of vehicles so they certainly cannot afford to develop an all new engine and then not put it in a bunch of cars. I expect that we will see different versions of this same engine in their FT-86 variant, the impreza, the forester, and maybe even an outback. It seems only logical that at some point it will get a turbo and just to keep their relationship balanced toyota would want their car to have a similar spec sheet to the subie version.

I agree with most of the previous comments about the S2k and the MR-2. the MR-2 was definitely too impractical for the common man. I'm not buying a roadster if I can't at least get a set of golf clubs in it. The people that can afford to buy cars that are that impractical can afford to buy nicer more expensive ones that don't put out 140hp. They buy a boxster or an elise. As for the S2000 it wasn't too expensive for what you got, it just had the wrong engine. The average driver in the US wants low end torque and isn't impressed by a 240hp 4 cylinder revving to 9000rpm. They could have sold twice as many S2000s if they had put a straight six under that long hood. Just look at the Z3....BMW sold a ton more of those once they dumped the 4 cylinder and went to I6 engine choices.

[xantonin]

I don't have a problem with this car being underpowered, as long as it's RWD.

My reasoning is that it would have cheaper insurance, and be put into a different class of cars. Hopefully the engine responds well to upgrades though.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by tachi1247

In regards to the original thread, I think that eventually there will be 2 engine choices. Based on what I've read/seen the introductory model is going to be normally aspirated and will be somewhere between 170 hp and 200. This seems realistic albeit very disappointing from an enthusiast's perspective. For $25k I would expect to have a minimum of 250hp.

I believe that later on the car will get a turbo variant and some suspension mods, rims, etc and a $30k price tag. People are shooting this down saying that it would be too expensive to develop a second engine option, but it is almost a guarantee that this car is going to share the engine with the next generation Impreza and turbo charged WRX version. Subaru is not a large car company and relative to the market doesn't sell a lot of vehicles so they certainly cannot afford to develop an all new engine and then not put it in a bunch of cars. I expect that we will see different versions of this same engine in their FT-86 variant, the impreza, the forester, and maybe even an outback. It seems only logical that at some point it will get a turbo and just to keep their relationship balanced toyota would want their car to have a similar spec sheet to the subie version.

I agree with most of the previous comments about the S2k and the MR-2. the MR-2 was definitely too impractical for the common man. I'm not buying a roadster if I can't at least get a set of golf clubs in it. The people that can afford to buy cars that are that impractical can afford to buy nicer more expensive ones that don't put out 140hp. They buy a boxster or an elise. As for the S2000 it wasn't too expensive for what you got, it just had the wrong engine. The average driver in the US wants low end torque and isn't impressed by a 240hp 4 cylinder revving to 9000rpm. They could have sold twice as many S2000s if they had put a straight six under that long hood. Just look at the Z3....BMW sold a ton more of those once they dumped the 4 cylinder and went to I6 engine choices.

The Honda's 4 cylinder had about 100 more hp than the Z3's. Z3 was not the track weapon that an S2K is. S2K also had no auto so it was a (for the most part) poseur-free car, unlike the Ultimate Posing Machine BMW.

Torque was not likely the factor in the L6 selling more than the 4 for the BMW, it was likely the price expectation/justification part of it.

Honda knew exactly what they were doing with that one. They weren't trying to set sales records. Let's hope Toyota is even half as committed to performance and driver involvement as Honda was with the S2K.


Edit, more on topic...

Watched Road and Track's vid of Geneva. Pretty much the same as Hachiroku's, but the narrator mentioned that they are benchmarking the handling of the FT86 against the Porsche Cayman. If they can give us Cayman handling at the target price point, holy jebus this thing's going to be wicked. 180-200 hp at 2700-2800 lbs with Cayman-beating handling would be amazing!

[ryun84]

Originally Posted by Dimman

The Honda's 4 cylinder had about 100 more hp than the Z3's. Z3 was not the track weapon that an S2K is. S2K also had no auto so it was a (for the most part) poseur-free car, unlike the Ultimate Posing Machine BMW.

Torque was not likely the factor in the L6 selling more than the 4 for the BMW, it was likely the price expectation/justification part of it.

Honda knew exactly what they were doing with that one. They weren't trying to set sales records. Let's hope Toyota is even half as committed to performance and driver involvement as Honda was with the S2K.


Edit, more on topic...

Watched Road and Track's vid of Geneva. Pretty much the same as Hachiroku's, but the narrator mentioned that they are benchmarking the handling of the FT86 against the Porsche Cayman. If they can give us Cayman handling at the target price point, holy jebus this thing's going to be wicked. 180-200 hp at 2700-2800 lbs with Cayman-beating handling would be amazing!

^This. I would take an AP1 S2K over a BMW Z3 any day. S2000s are amazing at the track (rode in a friend's at the ACS track here in SoCal and nearly shit myself). And knowing that the S2K only comes with manual is a plus as Dimman mentioned above. It's also especially nice when you see a girl driving the S2000. You know then that that chick can drive stick!

Also, I think when most people complain about the 200hp spec, they don't realize that that amount power is actually quite a bit for the WEIGHT of the car, which is supposed to be very light. If the car were to be 3000lbs, then yes, I would complain about the 200hp... but more about being heavy than underpowered. Point is, power-to-weight ratio should be the focus, not just straight HP numbers.

[Mr.Jay]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

Yeah... but again, there already is a lightweight, tossable FR car that excels in handling and braking -- the Miata.

Again -- no offense -- but if you are one of the people thinking "Ooh -- it's the return of the AE-86! Hooray!" You do not represent enough of the market to keep this thing in production.

You guys may have been the inspiration, but there just aren't enough of you to keep the car going on your own.

Toyota needs to think about the cost of the car, the bang for the buck, and what similarly priced cars it will unavoidably compete with will offer, at least if they intend to bring it to the US.

Originally Posted by NESW20

the miata doesn't even pretend to have rear seats. also, it's convertible only (i realize there's a hardtop conv option). i know numerous people who NEED back seats, no matter how useless they may be; they won't be sitting back there. also, i know several more people who will not buy a convertible. period.

Also I dont want to drive a car that smiles at me XD

I'm actually hoping this is just a lightweight RWD coupe. Limited power is fine with me I just want the joy of driving back into a toyota at a reasonable price. I hope it lives up to the dream tho I am not holding my breathe but I mean Toyota did build and sell the LFAs at a loss to gain ground hahaha I'm dreaming I know FT86 is gonna be a mass market car

Originally Posted by DesertSpool

You make it sound as if adding power is an easy task. Adding a lot of power to any NA small displacement engine is a total pain in the butt. Look at the graveyard of blown FI 350Z motors. It's expensive and unreliable at best.

You got me all wrong. I was trying to say that adding power is easier than adding lightness. I rather have a nice light RWD car then a heavy powerful car especially since where the hell am I going to be able to fully enjoy that on the street

[Jordo!]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

S2K = too expensive, MR-2 = 0 practicality.

Fair enough on the S2K, but why is the Miata any more practical than the MR2?

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

In fact if you check out the Miata/MX-5 forums, a lot of the ppl there are excited over this car.

I don't doubt it, but I have no faith that the FT-86 will steal anyone away from one -- it's just a different kind of car. Of course, I could be completely wrong... that does happen occasionally

I dunno man, its just that for every 1 car enthusaist I hear from on here who is excited at the prospect of this car's handling capability, I hear from 3-5 grumblers elsewhere who are expecting the car to have very little grunt...

But... what's the point of trying to guess what will be built and whether it will sell? It'll be made clear by December... (hopefully).

EDIT:

P.S.

I agree 100% with everything tachi1247 and AdvanceExcavations86 said. Spot on analysis IMO.

[Mr.Jay]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

Fair enough on the S2K, but why is the Miata any more practical than the MR2?

This was the 1st thing to come to mind

http://www.familycar.com/RoadTests/T.../SpareTire.jpg

VS

http://0.tqn.com/d/cars/1/0/y/m/ag_07miata_trunk.jpg