GR 86: Orders /Reservation /Waitlist Chat

[CincyJohn]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Primarily it has to do are we in "business as usual" or is the seller taking advantage of folks when there is some type of economic, weather or other disaster going on they are taking advantage of at the time of the sale.

If a dealer does sell a car at a significant loss then no I won't shed a tear for them. I doubt the dealers were taking some huge loss on the cars, unless they decided it made more sense to sell it than keep it in inventory for some accounting reason.

Heck the much beleaguered Aztec ended production in 2005 and Pontiac continued to sell the last ones on the lot all the way out to the 2007 model year.

This really all boils down to the general feeling (held by many) that dealers and businesses don't deserve to make a profit. I've never understood that. I've never thought of deals as being fair or unfair. Everyone has agency. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy or sell anything. It's the definition of a free market. If you don't like what someone is offering you, go somewhere else.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by CincyJohn

This really all boils down to the general feeling (held by many) that dealers and businesses don't deserve to make a profit. I've never understood that. I've never thought of deals as being fair or unfair. Everyone has agency. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy or sell anything. It's the definition of a free market. If you don't like what someone is offering you, go somewhere else.

No argument here. Dealers are in the business to maximize profits, and if they can charge $6,000 for floor mats and idiots will pay it, more power to them.

I do think it's a problem when that type of practice gets so normalized that you can't refuse it. "Document fees" are an example of something becoming normalized. You basically can't buy a car without paying those in a lot of areas, even though it's really just the cost of doing business and takes what, 5 minutes on a computer?

[fredzy]

Originally Posted by CincyJohn

This really all boils down to the general feeling (held by many) that dealers and businesses don't deserve to make a profit. I've never understood that. I've never thought of deals as being fair or unfair. Everyone has agency. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy or sell anything. It's the definition of a free market. If you don't like what someone is offering you, go somewhere else.

I was going to say "nobody is saying they don't deserve to make a profit" but I guess there are a lot of people arguing that dealers are unnecessary middle men that shouldn't exist, which is essentially the same thing.

Whether car dealers should exist or not is debatable, the point I was going to make is that for many, their anti-dealer sentiment has little or nothing to do with their car prices. This was the case for me until this year. I am fortunate to be able to choose who gets my money based on price - that's not always an easy option for people.

[CincyJohn]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

No argument here. Dealers are in the business to maximize profits, and if they can charge $6,000 for floor mats and idiots will pay it, more power to them.

I do think it's a problem when that type of practice gets so normalized that you can't refuse it. "Document fees" are an example of something becoming normalized. You basically can't buy a car without paying those in a lot of areas, even though it's really just the cost of doing business and takes what, 5 minutes on a computer?

That's just accounting and how what the dealer is itemizing their markup on your bill. Think of it as a way they can account for the amount of money they need to make on a car to make it profitable for them without having to put the term "dealer markup" on the invoice. Of course, now they are actually putting "dealer markup" on the invoice and getting away with it, so there is that.

FYI - there is a reason a dealer charging markups in today's situation is understandable - they don't have the volumes that they used to have. Their overhead is still more or less the same (less money in inventory though). But they have tons of salesmen they still have to pay (with families that still need to eat) on far less volume. Only way for them to make their numbers work is to make more on a per car basis. Just something to think about...

[Doc_Bch_Stkrs]

Well, I finally pulled the trigger. Put in my $1k non refundable deposit. I'm the only one in line, so there's that. I honestly could not get a better deal though, so my patience will pay off.

$1,000 non refundable deposit, requested allocation is a Pavement 6MT in Premium trim with All Weather Mat Package, GR Appearance Package 1, and Frameless Auto Dimming Mirror with Homelink. Sold at MSRP, No ADM, no dealer added packages, only additional is $299 processing fee and tax/tag/registration, and I get a lifetime powertrain warranty (might be junk, but its free).

Haters will say I made a mistake, but I have 6 months to sit around and wait anyway. Plus I have a third vic to drive around in the meantime when I do get back.

[2020BRZtS]

It's no different than buying a beverage at an amusement park. Just a lot more zeroes.

[CincyJohn]

Originally Posted by Doc_Bch_Stkrs

Haters will say I made a mistake, but I have 6 months to sit around and wait anyway. Plus I have a third vic to drive around in the meantime when I do get back.

. Why? Because of the nonrefundable deposit? Not sure why - sounds like you otherwise got a good deal. But what I don’t understand is that under the Toyota allocation system, what happens if the dealer never gets an allocation to meet your order. What does the fine print say about their responsibility to you? What legally keeps them from just saying they never got your allocation and just keeping your $1000?

[CincyJohn]

Originally Posted by 2020BRZtS

It's no different than buying a beverage at an amusement park. Just a lot more zeroes.

Exactly. In the immortal words of Denunzio and Noonan-
“Well I ain’t payin no 50 cents for no Coke” - “then you ain’t gettin no Coke.”

[Doc_Bch_Stkrs]

Originally Posted by CincyJohn

. Why? Because of the nonrefundable deposit? Not sure why - sounds like you otherwise got a good deal. But what I don’t understand is that under the Toyota allocation system, what happens if the dealer never gets an allocation to meet your order. What does the fine print say about their responsibility to you? What legally keeps them from just saying they never got your allocation and just keeping your $1000?

Thankfully my unique situation meant that after the initial phone call, all communique was via email. I asked specifically if we could include a sunset clause after 8-10 months and the response was that it should be 6-8. Yes, there is a possibility that it could be under contention. There was no signed agreement to the non refundable deposit, so no fine print to contest. Its been incredibly straight forward and honestly one of my top 2-3 buying experiences so far.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by CincyJohn

. Why? Because of the nonrefundable deposit? Not sure why - sounds like you otherwise got a good deal. But what I don’t understand is that under the Toyota allocation system, what happens if the dealer never gets an allocation to meet your order. What does the fine print say about their responsibility to you? What legally keeps them from just saying they never got your allocation and just keeping your $1000?

The "nonrefundable" deposit is just if a car is available and YOU back out of the deal. If they can't get one then it is refundable. I had to give a non refundable deposit when I ordered my Hakone and I had the same concern you stated. They explained the actual facts and I was fine with it.

[CincyJohn]

Originally Posted by Doc_Bch_Stkrs

Thankfully my unique situation meant that after the initial phone call, all communique was via email. I asked specifically if we could include a sunset clause after 8-10 months and the response was that it should be 6-8. Yes, there is a possibility that it could be under contention. There was no signed agreement to the non refundable deposit, so no fine print to contest. Its been incredibly straight forward and honestly one of my top 2-3 buying experiences so far.

Yeah - no issues from me then. Yes, they could go back on a handshake agreement and as they say, possession is 9/10ths of the law on the deposit. But getting MSRP is a steal in-and-of itself if you can deal with the wait. I'm guessing they are just trying to avoid someone like Fredzy (and others) putting refundable deposits down all over the place and simply waiting on the first (and, for the record, I have ZERO problems with them doing that either). Given your color choice and that you are first in-line at that dealership, I think you will probably get your car - maybe even early.

BTW, if it isn't abundantly clear from my posts, I am neither pro-dealer nor pro-buyer. I am pro-system and pro-agency. There are rules - either set by the government or set by the dealer/system. I have no problem with two parties working deals within the rules or establishing deals with their own sets of rules. There is no "good" guys or no "bad" guys in these situations. If you don't like the rules, do what you can (if possible) to have them changed.

[Robertw]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The "nonrefundable" deposit is just if a car is available and YOU back out of the deal. If they can't get one then it is refundable. I had to give a non refundable deposit when I ordered my Hakone and I had the same concern you stated. They explained the actual facts and I was fine with it.

There will always be a car available, it's just when. 2 weeks from deposit, 6 months, or a year. The issue is if you have deposits with multiple dealerships, and a car comes in you want, non refundable deposits become a problem.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Robertw

There will always be a car available, it's just when. 2 weeks from deposit, 6 months, or a year. The issue is if you have deposits with multiple dealerships, and a car comes in you want, non refundable deposits become a problem.

Well if you have several deposits out there that is your own fault for trying to play the system.

[Robertw]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Well if you have several deposits out there that is your own fault for trying to play the system.

How is that playing the system? lol If someone really wants the car, their best bet is to put deposits down with multiple dealerships. Most dealerships have a line of people waiting for the car, if someone backs out, it's of no loss to them anyways. Non refundable deposits are a dealership scam imho, especially in this current market.

The solution is to simply put deposits down with dealerships that offer refunds. I have a deposit with a dealership that hasn't even charged my card yet. I filled out a form that gives them permission to charge my card when they get an allocation for the car I submitted a "build" sheet for, or I agree to accepting a car that's not spec'd to my liking, ie color.

You can spare me the dealership apologist argument post I know you're brewing up after reading this reply.