Help Gmookher decide AP racing Vs Stoptech BBK vs Essex SPRINT KIT

[uspspro]

I'm going with the Essex Sprint, mostly because of the weight loss and the value.

[gmookher]

Okay, so thanks to you all for the great information. Both are excellent brakes, I havent yet finalized which one will work best for my usage, but its pretty clear for track user the winner is the Essex Sprint kit's CP8350; and pretty clear for the DD guy who may track but also needs weather protection, the ST-40 is the way to go.

While doing my own research off this forum, I found the cut and paste below, from J Ritter of Essex off of a corvette forum:

I'm uniquely qualified to answer this question...I was the sales mgr. at StopTech from 2003-2008, and I now work for Essex (the importer and distributor for the components used in the AP T1 kit). I worked with the AP folks and Gary at Hardbar to spec the T1 kit. Here's the breakdown as I see it.

Calipers
Anti-knockback springs
AP Racing has them, StopTech doesn't. People severely underestimate how valuable these springs are. After going through S turns, you'll have a much lower pucker factor in the next brake zone with the springs installed.

Piston type
StopTech= cast aluminum
AP= machined stainless steel
Stainless is far superior at keeping heat out of your brake fluid

Weight
ST-40 weighs 7.94 lbs. without pads
AP Racing CP8350 weighs 4.8 lbs. without pads...roughly half of the StopTech's

Dust Boots
StopTech is a street caliper, and as such uses dust boots. CP8350 has none. If you've ever run dust boots on the track, you'll find that they burn up and cause a big mess almost instantly. Their only value is if you're driving on winter or debris/dirty roads. As soon as they go on track they essentially lose all value.

Seals
Both calipers have quality, high temp seals.

Hydraulic protection
ST-40 has none, while the CP8350 has it for both bleed screw and crossover tube. This feature protects the hydraulics from track debris, and when you're swapping wheels.

High quality forged aluminum
The caliper bodies on the ST-40 and CP8350 are both high quality forged aluminum parts.

Pad choice/cost/size
Both calipers have tons of pad options. The pad surface area on the ST-40 is slightly larger, but they are a few mm thinner than the pads used in the CP8350. Overall pad mass is very comparable, but the nod goes to the thicker pads in terms of wear rate. On average, pads for the AP caliper are $100 less per set for the same compound.

Stainless Steel hardware
Both calipers have good stainless steel hardware.

Footprint/size
In addition to weighing much less, the CP8350 has a substantially smaller footprint and offers superior wheel fitment.

Finish
StopTech= painted. Look pretty, but will not look as good after hard use. Paint and powdercoat tends to change color dramatically at track temps. If you're driving through road salt, they will be better protected than anodized.
AP Racing= anodized. Look 'racier' (like what you see on full-blown race cars like C6R) and do not color shift nearly as much.

Rebuild Service
Essex offers a lifetime professional reconditioning service. For a $125/caliper you can send your calipers to Essex and have them rebuilt by the same techs who service NASCAR and ALMS teams. StopTech can rebuild, but I'm not sure how formalized their procedures, policies, and prices are at this time.

Discs

Quality and Price
Both companies offer high quality discs for the kits in question, at very similar prices. The AP's are actually a bit cheaper for replacement iron ($249) vs. $275 (i think it's still this much) for the StopTech's. Discs from both manufacturers are quality castings that are crack resistant and will last a long time under heavy track use. Due to the enormous number of variables, it's tough to say one would give you more longevity than the other. There are plenty of users of both on this forum who are getting the type of wear rates you describe.

The fact that the AP's are able to get similar wear, even though they are over an inch smaller (12.8" vs. 14.0") is notable however. Their 70 vane internal construction, and patented J hook face slot are the #1 choice at the elite level of motorsports (NASCAR, ALMS, DTM, Super GT, etc.). That said, there are plenty of World Challenge and Grand Am teams running StopTech discs with great success.

Disc hats
Both have a quality design and are made from aircraft grade aluminum. Both are optimized for weight and airflow.

Weight
I don't know the weight offhand, but I'm fairly certain the AP's will be a bit lighter.

Wheel Fitment
Wheel fitment is superior with the AP system as a whole.

Brake Lines
Both systems came with a high quality set of brake lines.

I actually ran the StopTech ST-60 system on my C5 Z06 while I worked at the company (and their ST-40 system on my 350Z). It is an excellent system with high quality parts. That said, the AP T1 kit was based with that system firmly in our sights. We tried to look at every piece of that system and produce something that eclipsed its performance, all while keeping the costs down. I believe we have succeeded...more technology, higher specification, lower running costs, etc.

[JoeBoxer]

Which are you going with?

[FreshFRS]

Essex Sprint kit gets my vote. the Light weight is awesome. you do live where you get winter conditions (i assume you will DD it in winter) the anodized coating is more susceptible to road salt then paint. i had Anodized AP calipers on my S2K that i daily drove for 4 winters in northern canada with no wear problems. we canadians use a LOT of salt up here.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by FreshFRS

daily drove for 4 winters in northern canada

From the very heart of my bottom, I hate you just a little. I miss my car.

[JRitt]

Happy Holidays guys!:happy0180:
I woke up, grabbed some coffee, pushed aside my visions of sugar plums, and gave a quick scan of this thread. On the topic of road salt & corrosion. You have to realize that the calipers are not the only piece a performance brake system that can be potentially damaged by road salt. ANY aluminum part can be a potential issue. The most common area for corrosion due to adverse conditions is actually the disc hats.

Why? Think about it a second. A 2-piece aluminum hat is sandwiched to an iron disc with hardware. Although the fitment is tight, there is plenty of room for salt and debris to get between the aluminum hat and the disc. Once that salt gets into the little gaps, it starts to eat the aluminum, whether it is anodized or not. Anodizing certainly increases the protection tremendously, but the salt will stilll do a number on discs if it is left to gnaw away at them. While I was at my last job, we had some issues in that area, particularly on Audi's. The Audi guys tend to drive their AWD cars all year in adverse conditions, so it makes sense that is where the problem crops up. Do a search on 'hat corrosion' and you'll probably find something. The salt works it's way in around the attachment points. The aluminum gets brittle, and starts to flake and crack in that area, causing a failure.

The reality is that any aftermarket system with a 2-piece disc is going to be equally open to corrosion issues in that area. That is the most vulnerable area for these issues, and where most people would run into problems.

Why don't many OEM cars come from the factory with a two-piece disc...even high end sports cars? Cost is obviously an issue, but corrosion, noise, vibration, and harshness are the others.

Don't forget about the aluminum caliper bracket in any aftermarket system as well. A bunch of caked on road salt is not going to do a caliper bracket any good. That's one reason why most factory Brembo's and AP's are lug mount. In other words, they bolt directly to the upright and eliminate the aluminum adapter bracket.

[JRitt]

Originally Posted by gmookher

Okay, so thanks to you all for the great information. Both are excellent brakes, I havent yet finalized which one will work best for my usage, but its pretty clear for track user the winner is the Essex Sprint kit's CP8350; and pretty clear for the DD guy who may track but also needs weather protection, the ST-40 is the way to go.

While doing my own research off this forum, I found the cut and paste below, from J Ritter of Essex off of a corvette forum:

I'm uniquely qualified to answer this question...I was the sales mgr. at StopTech from 2003-2008, and I now work for Essex (the importer and distributor for the components used in the AP T1 kit). I worked with the AP folks and Gary at Hardbar to spec the T1 kit. Here's the breakdown as I see it.

Calipers
Anti-knockback springs
AP Racing has them, StopTech doesn't. People severely underestimate how valuable these springs are. After going through S turns, you'll have a much lower pucker factor in the next brake zone with the springs installed.

Piston type
StopTech= cast aluminum
AP= machined stainless steel
Stainless is far superior at keeping heat out of your brake fluid

Weight
ST-40 weighs 7.94 lbs. without pads
AP Racing CP8350 weighs 4.8 lbs. without pads...roughly half of the StopTech's

Dust Boots
StopTech is a street caliper, and as such uses dust boots. CP8350 has none. If you've ever run dust boots on the track, you'll find that they burn up and cause a big mess almost instantly. Their only value is if you're driving on winter or debris/dirty roads. As soon as they go on track they essentially lose all value.

Seals
Both calipers have quality, high temp seals.

Hydraulic protection
ST-40 has none, while the CP8350 has it for both bleed screw and crossover tube. This feature protects the hydraulics from track debris, and when you're swapping wheels.

High quality forged aluminum
The caliper bodies on the ST-40 and CP8350 are both high quality forged aluminum parts.

Pad choice/cost/size
Both calipers have tons of pad options. The pad surface area on the ST-40 is slightly larger, but they are a few mm thinner than the pads used in the CP8350. Overall pad mass is very comparable, but the nod goes to the thicker pads in terms of wear rate. On average, pads for the AP caliper are $100 less per set for the same compound.

Stainless Steel hardware
Both calipers have good stainless steel hardware.

Footprint/size
In addition to weighing much less, the CP8350 has a substantially smaller footprint and offers superior wheel fitment.

Finish
StopTech= painted. Look pretty, but will not look as good after hard use. Paint and powdercoat tends to change color dramatically at track temps. If you're driving through road salt, they will be better protected than anodized.
AP Racing= anodized. Look 'racier' (like what you see on full-blown race cars like C6R) and do not color shift nearly as much.

Rebuild Service
Essex offers a lifetime professional reconditioning service. For a $125/caliper you can send your calipers to Essex and have them rebuilt by the same techs who service NASCAR and ALMS teams. StopTech can rebuild, but I'm not sure how formalized their procedures, policies, and prices are at this time.

Discs

Quality and Price
Both companies offer high quality discs for the kits in question, at very similar prices. The AP's are actually a bit cheaper for replacement iron ($249) vs. $275 (i think it's still this much) for the StopTech's. Discs from both manufacturers are quality castings that are crack resistant and will last a long time under heavy track use. Due to the enormous number of variables, it's tough to say one would give you more longevity than the other. There are plenty of users of both on this forum who are getting the type of wear rates you describe.

The fact that the AP's are able to get similar wear, even though they are over an inch smaller (12.8" vs. 14.0") is notable however. Their 70 vane internal construction, and patented J hook face slot are the #1 choice at the elite level of motorsports (NASCAR, ALMS, DTM, Super GT, etc.). That said, there are plenty of World Challenge and Grand Am teams running StopTech discs with great success.

Disc hats
Both have a quality design and are made from aircraft grade aluminum. Both are optimized for weight and airflow.

Weight
I don't know the weight offhand, but I'm fairly certain the AP's will be a bit lighter.

Wheel Fitment
Wheel fitment is superior with the AP system as a whole.

Brake Lines
Both systems came with a high quality set of brake lines.

I actually ran the StopTech ST-60 system on my C5 Z06 while I worked at the company (and their ST-40 system on my 350Z). It is an excellent system with high quality parts. That said, the AP T1 kit was based with that system firmly in our sights. We tried to look at every piece of that system and produce something that eclipsed its performance, all while keeping the costs down. I believe we have succeeded...more technology, higher specification, lower running costs, etc.

Thanks for digging that up. Yes, that pretty much sums up how we approached our Competition System design. When we spec'd our first Competition System for the C5/C6 Corvette, I went down the list of competitors and addressed all of the weaknesses/complaints I had heard from customers over the years..."I have pad knockback," "the parts are too big and heavy," "I want stainless or titanium pistons (like just about every pro race team on the planet)," "my calipers got hot on the track and the dust boots disintegrated," "I did a weekend at Road America and my red calipers are now maroon," "my pads are too thin and wear out quickly," "I bent my crossover tube putting on a wheel," "I don't know how to rebuild my calipers but I need to"...the list goes on. We addressed all of those problems with our systems.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by JRitt

Happy Holidays guys!:happy0180:
I woke up, grabbed some coffee, pushed aside my visions of sugar plums, and gave a quick scan of this thread. On the topic of road salt & corrosion. You have to realize that the calipers are not the only piece a performance brake system that can be potentially damaged by road salt. ANY aluminum part can be a potential issue. The most common area for corrosion due to adverse conditions is actually the disc hats.

Why? Think about it a second. A 2-piece aluminum hat is sandwiched to an iron disc with hardware. Although the fitment is tight, there is plenty of room for salt and debris to get between the aluminum hat and the disc. Once that salt gets into the little gaps, it starts to eat the aluminum, whether it is anodized or not. Anodizing certainly increases the protection tremendously, but the salt will stilll do a number on discs if it is left to gnaw away at them. While I was at my last job, we had some issues in that area, particularly on Audi's. The Audi guys tend to drive their AWD cars all year in adverse conditions, so it makes sense that is where the problem crops up. Do a search on 'hat corrosion' and you'll probably find something. The salt works it's way in around the attachment points. The aluminum gets brittle, and starts to flake and crack in that area, causing a failure.

The reality is that any aftermarket system with a 2-piece disc is going to be equally open to corrosion issues in that area. That is the most vulnerable area for these issues, and where most people would run into problems.

Why don't many OEM cars come from the factory with a two-piece disc...even high end sports cars? Cost is obviously an issue, but corrosion, noise, vibration, and harshness are the others.

Don't forget about the aluminum caliper bracket in any aftermarket system as well. A bunch of caked on road salt is not going to do a caliper bracket any good. That's one reason why most factory Brembo's and AP's are lug mount. In other words, they bolt directly to the upright and eliminate the aluminum adapter bracket.

And how would you feel if a customer painted their rotor hats (which they would have to first disassemble?) and/or caliper in seeking corrosion resistance? Sigh, someone buy me a winter beater and storage space for my BRZ.

[MSTiFK8R]

I also was tearing my brain with all that BBKs

ended up in getting Essex Endurance AP kit )))

free your mind !

[gmookher]

can you highlight endurance vs sprint key differences, and MSRPSs?

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by gmookher

can you highlight endurance vs sprint key differences, and MSRPSs?

http://www.essexpartsblog.com/news/b...and-comparison

Basically the Endurance has larger rotors, can fit larger pads (but can also use pads for the sprint kit), has attachment points for brake ducts, is fully floating (which will increase NVH) and weighs about 5lbs more per front corner compared to the Sprint kit (so instead of saving 20lbs total you save 10lbs total compared to OEM gear).

I asked Jeff the same queston before I bought them too

[7thgear]

we're sending semi-self-aware robots to Mars yet still haven't found a solution to corrosion?

is there even a solution in the works? industry buzz? will we ever see a best of both worlds product?

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

we're sending semi-self-aware robots to Mars yet still haven't found a solution to corrosion?

is there even a solution in the works? industry buzz? will we ever see a best of both worlds product?

Because cast iron. And dollars.

If the rotors were stainless steel they wouldn't transfer heat fast enough.

Only other non-carbon rotor option I've heard of is beryllium copper. Lighter than cast iron, but the dust is toxic. Plus I'm not even sure if they corrode.

[7thgear]

pfff, when has toxicity ever stopped an automotive enthusiast?

also rotors is one thing, but what about the hats?