Am I the only one who thinks a swapped 86 is no longer an 86?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Overdrive

I really don't disagree beyond your first sentence. However, whether they designate it differently within the model range or not (technically they don't have to other than to prevent confusion for people who don't actively read clearly presented information for a vehicle, and of course to make it more appealing than one without a V8) it's still an 86, right? Whether they name it 86 or 86 GLHS, it's still an 86, apparently just because Toyota says so, and that alone makes it ok. To me, Toyota deciding to Frankenstein an engine in there is at its basic level not entirely different than Joe Somebody doing the same thing other than people being willing to accept it more willingly.

But once it has a level designation then it can be classed appropriately.
A low level 86 would not be an 86 GLHS even though they look the same. This is why all racing associations have different classes.
I look at different levels of a car much as if they were technically different cars. If I took a bare bones V6 Camaro and slapped a SS badge on it then it does not become a SS as far as performance goes. It is not a fair statement to say that Challengers are all high HP monsters because the Hellcat exists when some of the base versions can't pass themselves. This is where I object to the claims that an engine swapped 86 should be claimed to be the fastest, highest HP, lowest, etc, 86 since they are altered well beyond being an 86 and the only thing they really share is some basic components. At some point (and yes it could involve splitting hairs) you change enough that it simply can not be called the original. The solution could be as simple as slapping some letters on the end of the car name to designate that it is indeed different.


This is of course a totally philosophical discussion anyway since there is no possible right or wrong answer. As Gram pointed out the same thing has been asked in a slightly different manner for a couple of thousand years.

[Dadhawk]

For me, in the end, its just a name.

Yes, technically it is no longer an 86 once you move past the stock configuration in any meaningful way. It's a "modified 86".

Really even manufacturers play this game. Sorry but 1967 Camaro is not the same car as a 2016 Camaro. It is name only.

Same with "stock cars" in NASCAR or other more reasonable racing sports. What they race under a name is not what you can get and run on the street, in most cases.

Pretty sure there is nothing "Camry" about this car except the name on the front bumper. If it was, and I could get one for the streets, I'd buy it.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

I'm not referring to anyone here but I find a lot of people to be very small minded and bigoted when it comes to this topic, even in cases where the replacement engine doesn't hurt the weight balance, COG, etc. First it's, "well you should have kept the stock engine". If not that, it's "well at least keep it [insert manufacturer here]". GM makes a better aluminum v8 than anyone in the world. Porsche is the same way with the flat 6. Honda is that way with an inline 4. God forbid you switch manufacturer's though. Better to swap an inferior engine that stays in house. If it isn't that it's "well at least keep it Japanese" or whatever nationality. It is so pointless, especially when a 1 liter ecoboost and a Veyron engine still have significantly more in common than not. I swear if we had alien tech, we'd have idiots talking about keeping it human but at least then there might be a real difference.

I want to be very very clear that I am in no way shape or form saying that swaps etc should not be done or are bad in any manner. I don't even think that the pros or cons of swaps is what is being discussed here. The topic I am referencing is simply should it still be called an 86 without some sort of clarifier attached that it extensively modified and changed from the "normal" capabilities of the car. Try to take a swapped 86 to many race events and see if they will class you with the stock versions and see what they have to say about it.

[Guru Woodman]

I was reading an article this week that science is getting ready to transplant a human head (I kid you not) on a human body. And there was a similar discussion. My conclusion was that the head (or brain) defines the identity, not the body. But even that is questionable. If it is the head or brain, it would not be the tissue itself, but the firing neurones and processes.
And if that is the case, we would be able to transplant the identity of a human by moving this process into another whole body (including head) or maybe even a computer. But would it move the soul too (whatever that is)? vs

If I translate this to the 86, I would say that the swapping an engine would not change the identity of the car (it would still be a 86 on paper) but it would alter the soul, that is the essence of the machine or what the designers were trying to achieve when making the car.
If the engine is comparable (say another FA20 or bigger Subaru boxer) it would still be close to the essence, but if you manage to cramp in a 4 or 6 cylinder line or V engine it would not be a GT86/BRZ.

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

I'm not referring to anyone here but I find a lot of people to be very small minded and bigoted when it comes to this topic, even in cases where the replacement engine doesn't hurt the weight balance, COG, etc. First it's, "well you should have kept the stock engine". If not that, it's "well at least keep it [insert manufacturer here]". GM makes a better aluminum v8 than anyone in the world. Porsche is the same way with the flat 6. Honda is that way with an inline 4. God forbid you switch manufacturer's though. Better to swap an inferior engine that stays in house. If it isn't that it's "well at least keep it Japanese" or whatever nationality. It is so pointless, especially when a 1 liter ecoboost and a Veyron engine still have significantly more in common than not. I swear if we had alien tech, we'd have idiots talking about keeping it human but at least then there might be a real difference.

You know why it's called an 86, rite?

[Guru Woodman]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

You know why it's called an 86, rite?

The diameter of the exhaust pipe in millimetres , amirite?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

You know why it's called an 86, rite?

It is not named after the bore and stroke. Yes those are the numbers but they are not the source of the name. It is named after the Toyota AE86 which was a simple chassis code not anything related to the engine.


Wikipedia on why the AE86 was called that.
"For the purpose of brevity, the insider-chassis code of "AE86" depicts the 1600 cc RWD model from the range. In classic Toyota code, the "A" represents the engine that came in the car (4A series), "E" represents the Corolla, "8" represents the fifth generation (E80 series) and "6" represents the variation within this generation."


From the Toyota 86 development brochure:

[Overdrive]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

But once it has a level designation then it can be classed appropriately.
A low level 86 would not be an 86 GLHS even though they look the same. This is why all racing associations have different classes.
I look at different levels of a car much as if they were technically different cars. If I took a bare bones V6 Camaro and slapped a SS badge on it then it does not become a SS as far as performance goes. It is not a fair statement to say that Challengers are all high HP monsters because the Hellcat exists when some of the base versions can't pass themselves. This is where I object to the claims that an engine swapped 86 should be claimed to be the fastest, highest HP, lowest, etc, 86 since they are altered well beyond being an 86 and the only thing they really share is some basic components. At some point (and yes it could involve splitting hairs) you change enough that it simply can not be called the original. The solution could be as simple as slapping some letters on the end of the car name to designate that it is indeed different.


This is of course a totally philosophical discussion anyway since there is no possible right or wrong answer. As Gram pointed out the same thing has been asked in a slightly different manner for a couple of thousand years.

I really don't think we're saying entirely dissimilar things at all. You may be misunderstanding my point, though, and I yours. I'm sure we're at an agree to disagree point with some aspects of the discussion. Sure, take a V6 Camaro, is what it is. It can, however, house a V8, because we know it can and it's been done. They did not, however, have to designate it an SS or Z/28 when they made it. Both cars could just be called Camaros and it isn't wrong. Someone could drop an SS engine in what started as a base Camaro, and technically call it whichever they want, a base or an SS. Neither is improper at that point depending on who you ask. I completely get you and agree that there is a point reached where the car ceases to be anything but a skin deep version of what it was. But this conversation started, and should stick with, engine swaps, and that alone to me isn't necessarily enough to say the car isn't what it was anymore. If I drop in a Porsche or Subaru flat six, I could spin whatever story you want to justify it, not that I have to, but I can. Toyota saved Porsche's bacon 25 years ago, so technically anything developed by Porsche since has Toyota influence/taint, makes it ok to use a Porsche engine out of say, a Boxster. Toyota has had partial ownership of Subaru for some time, and who really knows how long they've been sharing engineering and collaboration on stuff we may not know about without some digging. And speaking of digging, little known fact that Porsche helped Subaru engineer parts of their engine (a bit like Toyota slapping their injection system onto the FA engine) so whether it's Toyotas ownership stake in Subaru or Porsche's help in developing their H-6 engines, I'm totally legit dropping one into my engine bay without it being an abomination. It's all in the extended family.

Or we can just let people do whatever they're gonna do and try not to let it rankle us too much. I get your point that people with a swapped car shouldn't claim it is a faster/winningest example of the original car, but we won't be able to change that way of the world any time soon.

I do think people overdo the purist shtick when it comes to cars. Do I like seeing an LS swapped RX-7? Not really, but it ain't my car and money, and it does do some things a vanilla RX-7 Simply can't. I can appreciate them as much as I don't.

Please read no ill tone in anything I'm saying, btw. There is none intended.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Overdrive

Or we can just let people do whatever they're gonna do and try not to let it rankle us too much. I get your point that people with a swapped car shouldn't claim it is a faster/winningest example of the original car, but we won't be able to change that way of the world any time soon.

I do think people overdo the purist shtick when it comes to cars. Do I like seeing an LS swapped RX-7? Not really, but it ain't my car and money, and it does do some things a vanilla RX-7 Simply can't. I can appreciate them as much as I don't.

Please read no ill tone in anything I'm saying, btw. There is none intended.

I have no ill here either. The nature of the conversation may make things sound like sarcasm or anger when they are not. Also not trying to change the world or peoples thoughts on this since it is totally subjective who thinks what is the dividing line. In my case I feel the line is any change that takes the car way above or below the original performance specs. Other than a couple I don't think many here are taking the purest line really. The whole "soul" of the car thing always makes me chuckle. It is a machine and can be made to do whatever you want.

A lot of my dislike (more of a minor annoyance) with the naming of cars what they really are not comes from the whole classic car clone culture. You buy a cheap ass Tempest pull the six, swap an 8 and throw a hood and some badges on it and then claim you have a GTO. You do NOT have a GTO you have something you slapped together that is equipped similar to a GTO but that does not in any way make it one. Had a guy try to sell me a 70 GTO Judge and when I went to look at it the outside was perfect but when I opened the door it still had the bench seat, Tempest door panels and the fitting for the steering column shifter. He had the audacity to insist it was a real Judge and the interior was a special edition. There are currently more 67 Chevelle SSs on the road than they made in 67 and THAT is the sort of thing that bugs me.

[Guru Woodman]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

A lot of my dislike (more of a minor annoyance) with the naming of cars what they really are not comes from the whole classic car clone culture. You buy a cheap ass Tempest pull the six, swap an 8 and throw a hood and some badges on it and then claim you have a GTO. You do NOT have a GTO you have something you slapped together that is equipped similar to a GTO but that does not in any way make it one. Had a guy try to sell me a 70 GTO Judge and when I went to look at it the outside was perfect but when I opened the door it still had the bench seat, Tempest door panels and the fitting for the steering column shifter. He had the audacity to insist it was a real Judge and the interior was a special edition. There are currently more 67 Chevelle SSs on the road than they made in 67 and THAT is the sort of thing that bugs me.

I scan Kijiji (Craiglist equivalent in Canada) on a daily basis and I always get the shivers when I see ads claiming they are selling a so called 'Tribute' car and then pretend it's the real thing.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Guru Woodman

I scan Kijiji (Craiglist equivalent in Canada) on a daily basis and I always get the shivers when I see ads claiming they are selling a so called 'Tribute' car and then pretend it's the real thing.

I have wasted my time driving for hours to look at Dart GTs that I was 100% assured were the real thing. They weren't.

[bcj]

I wouldn't be at all upset if someone bought a bunch of chassis to build as homoligation for a specific race spec.
Is that still a thing anymore?

That's where Rouch and Seleen fall into the picture. Don't think anyone would say they are the same as OEM cars.
Engine swaps happen in all sorts of individual carports that are one off.

Would love to see a group something like Singer that could see an advantage in doing the twins a favor and still make money.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The whole "soul" of the car thing always makes me chuckle. It is a machine and can be made to do whatever you want.

I've driven a few friends' machines that have been modded with FI. Hell, even with stickier tires they become a completely different car.

I struggle more than ever with the decision to mod or not. It's happening though; slowly with great care, but it's happening.



My hat's off to everyone in this thread. Approaching 100 posts with maturity and respect.

[Yoda]

100th