Help us choose between two Scions

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

I'm one of them..... well, except the crickets. Which, until I DID RESEARCH bugged the hell out of me.

Repeat:
Research. Good.
Thinking everything happens to everybody. Bad

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Repeat:
Research. Good.
Thinking everything happens to everybody. Bad

Never said it did happen to everybody. Just suggested doing some research, lol. Fawk....

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

Very common issue with vehicles dealers know little about. It is a niche vehicle and even Subaru doesn't really acknowledge the car. The current model year is a Toyota 86, so changing the make and model during production is almost unheard of. Lots of issue concerning this vehicle and general selling.


Being a knowledgeable buyer is a must here when it comes to pricing and trims. If you haven't looked into the plethora of issues that come with owning these cars, that is a must read as well.

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

Never said it did happen to everybody. Just suggested doing some research, lol. Fawk....

That is open to interpretation.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

That is open to interpretation.

Now THAT is a niggle.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

Now THAT is a niggle.

Originally Posted by VIP BRZ

Wha'd you just call me?!?!

I will just reuse VIP's joke!

[Shark_Bait88]

As others have said, I'd avoid both of these cars.

#1, clearly rebadged and modified (likely by a younger driver, which leads me to believe it was more likely abused). Then again, most all of these cars in used condition have likely been driven hard. Good news is, they can handle the abuse if properly maintained. Dealer also seems to not be knowledgeable about the cars, which isn't uncommon for dealerships, and also very willing to mislead the buyer (you).

#2, usually ideal to avoid any cars that have been in a collision, unless you get them inspected by a trusted mechanic. Price is alright, but nothing to jump at.

The "plethora of issues" is a bit of an exaggeration. These cars are quite reliable, and issues tend to be cosmetic in nature (generally only with very early models, and even then not all of them), a completely common effect of modern high flow fuel pumps and nothing to worry about (see: crickets), or some transmission issues (worth reading up on, but not a significant enough issue that I'd advise against buying one).

A bit of my personal experience: I bought a used '13 in the summer of '14. It is red and had 4,100 miles on it at the time. I paid $23.5k OTD from a local Subaru dealer, after talking them down a bit. Mine was built in the 2nd half of the first production year, supposedly after the body fitment issues had been resolved (not all early models were affected by this, just inspect the cars thoroughly with a scrutinizing eye). I also was involved in an accident in my car, in which I hydroplaned in a storm, spun out off the road through a ditch and into some thick brush. The car was mechanically sound, but did around $6,800 in cosmetic damage. Not all accidents mean the car is going to be full of gremlins, but anything with collision noted should be examined by a professional (with a specific focus on damage to the frame of the car).

I say to keep looking for the right deal, there are lots of these cars on the used market and there are some good deals out there, and to do all the research you can in the meantime. Ideally you should know more about the cars in general than the dealer/seller when you go to look. Always have used cars inspected by a 3rd party (non-interested) mechanic that you trust. If you don't have one, ask family/friends if they have a trustworthy mechanic who can do an inspection.

As for the modifications, the exhaust your son seems to be interested in is a fairly cheap one that can be picked up new or used for not that much ($300-500). I wouldn't let that be a deal breaker on the car.

A side note, and I'm not trying to scare you off here, but these are RWD sports cars, and while they may not be fast a driver can potentially get into trouble if they're lacking in skill. (Even skilled drivers crash too). Generally speaking, RWD sports cars aren't the ideal choice for a young person's first car. My first car was an 2000 Toyota Corolla with an automatic transmission. An excellent first car, but the bane of my young speed-hungry existence at the time. lol But we're enthusiasts here, so I won't steer you away from buying your son an FR-S. I welcome young new enthusiasts to the community! I just caution you to fully do your research.

What I will recommend in regard to building driving skill is to look into autocross with your local Sports Car Club of America (SCCA) chapter. You can read up on it here: https://www.scca.com/pages/i-want-to-autocross But I'll give you a brief rundown of it

Autocross is a fairly low speed/low risk form of motorsport that takes place in some sort of large open lot. Drivers take turns navigating a cone course as quickly as possible, with the goal of getting through the course in the fastest time. The nice thing about it is that the tighter course design means lower speeds/low risk. You're unlikely to exceed 60mph in these cars on most courses, with an average speed closer to around 20-40mph.

A few benefits of autocross:

-It'll teach your son more about car control, and in theory should make him a better driver. They usually hold instructional in the beginning of the year (and experienced member are always willing to lend advice/instruction throughout) It also teaches you to respect the limits of your car, and hopefully provides an outlet, for all that speed lust, that isn't on public roads.
-It's an excellent activity for you and your son to do together (hooray father-son bonding!)
-You can do it in a completely stock car without any real preparation (just make sure your oil and brake fluid are at appropriate levels).
-It's a lot of fun


(Excuse the long reply, I've got 30min of work left and this helped me kill some time haha)

[pauldz]

With so many folks saying to stay away from damaged cars, I suppose there is no point in even considering a car with rebuilt title? There's a place in Orlando that specializes in fixing and selling damaged twins. They seem to have a good reputation, their cars look like new in photos, and their prices are thousands less than elsewhere. I'd have to pick a mechanic at random to check any of their vehicles, as I don't live near Orlando.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by pauldz

With so many folks saying to stay away from damaged cars, I suppose there is no point in even considering a car with rebuilt title? There's a place in Orlando that specializes in fixing and selling damaged twins. They seem to have a good reputation, their cars look like new in photos, and their prices are thousands less than elsewhere. I'd have to pick a mechanic at random to check any of their vehicles, as I don't live near Orlando.

A properly rebuilt car can be as good as new. Depends on what was damaged as though. Some can be written off with minimal or no structural damage (i.e. hail) and can be a great deal. The problem lies in knowing exactly how reliable the restorer is and how severe the original damage was. If comfortable with the restorer and they can prove the damage wasn't so bad then I would not hesitate to buy one. The one caveat I would add to that though is it is not the way to go if you ever want to resell the vehicle. Obviously if you buy it cheap due to the title then trying to sell it to the next guy is going to be even more painful. OK if you want to drive it into the ground though.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

As others have said, I'd avoid both of these cars.

#1, clearly rebadged and modified (likely by a younger driver, which leads me to believe it was more likely abused). Then again, most all of these cars in used condition have likely been driven hard. Good news is, they can handle the abuse if properly maintained. Dealer also seems to not be knowledgeable about the cars, which isn't uncommon for dealerships, and also very willing to mislead the buyer (you). Disagree. The presumption that every young guy's car has been beat on is not fair or reasonable. The fake Special Edition plate and the minor mods would lead me to believe that this was a babied garage queen over a beat on street racer. Just a hunch but there are loads of young guys cars here that I would buy in a second.

#2, usually ideal to avoid any cars that have been in a collision, unless you get them inspected by a trusted mechanic. Price is alright, but nothing to jump at. As I said above this depends a lot on the restorer and the nature of the damage. A bumper cover and paint can cost a pile but really have zero effect on the car. A twisted and improperly straightened frame is a whole different matter. The price on that one doesn't give enough advantage over the risk though.

The "plethora of issues" is a bit of an exaggeration. These cars are quite reliable, and issues tend to be cosmetic in nature (generally only with very early models, and even then not all of them), a completely common effect of modern high flow fuel pumps and nothing to worry about (see: crickets), or some transmission issues (worth reading up on, but not a significant enough issue that I'd advise against buying one).

A bit of my personal experience: I bought a used '13 in the summer of '14. It is red and had 4,100 miles on it at the time. I paid $23.5k OTD from a local Subaru dealer, after talking them down a bit. Mine was built in the 2nd half of the first production year, supposedly after the body fitment issues had been resolved (not all early models were affected by this, just inspect the cars thoroughly with a scrutinizing eye). I also was involved in an accident in my car, in which I hydroplaned in a storm, spun out off the road through a ditch and into some thick brush. The car was mechanically sound, but did around $6,800 in cosmetic damage. Not all accidents mean the car is going to be full of gremlins, but anything with collision noted should be examined by a professional (with a specific focus on damage to the frame of the car). Yep!

I say to keep looking for the right deal, there are lots of these cars on the used market and there are some good deals out there, and to do all the research you can in the meantime. Ideally you should know more about the cars in general than the dealer/seller when you go to look. Always have used cars inspected by a 3rd party (non-interested) mechanic that you trust. If you don't have one, ask family/friends if they have a trustworthy mechanic who can do an inspection. Availability is not the same everyplace and the right deal could slip past while reading forums and searching for one everybody agrees is good (which will never happen)

As for the modifications, the exhaust your son seems to be interested in is a fairly cheap one that can be picked up new or used for not that much ($300-500). I wouldn't let that be a deal breaker on the car.

A side note, and I'm not trying to scare you off here, but these are RWD sports cars, and while they may not be fast a driver can potentially get into trouble if they're lacking in skill. (Even skilled drivers crash too). Generally speaking, RWD sports cars aren't the ideal choice for a young person's first car. My first car was an 2000 Toyota Corolla with an automatic transmission. An excellent first car, but the bane of my young speed-hungry existence at the time. lol But we're enthusiasts here, so I won't steer you away from buying your son an FR-S. I welcome young new enthusiasts to the community! I just caution you to fully do your research. I totally disagree with this statement. There is no magic or special skill involved in driving RWD cars. None. Your Great Great Grandmother drove them without thing anything about it. The nannys do a perfect job of keeping things lined up and with the lower HP you really have to push it too screw up. They also hold one of the best crash test ratings in the class. I take the totally opposite stand on people learning to drive with these and think they are the ideal platform to learn. My car will be going directly to my 14 year old grandson in 3 more years and I trust it to take very good care of 17 year old him.

What I will recommend in regard to building driving skill is to look into autocross with your local Sports Car Club of America (SCCA) chapter. You can read up on it here: https://www.scca.com/pages/i-want-to-autocross But I'll give you a brief rundown of it This is a GREAT recommendation

Autocross is a fairly low speed/low risk form of motorsport that takes place in some sort of large open lot. Drivers take turns navigating a cone course as quickly as possible, with the goal of getting through the course in the fastest time. The nice thing about it is that the tighter course design means lower speeds/low risk. You're unlikely to exceed 60mph in these cars on most courses, with an average speed closer to around 20-40mph.

A few benefits of autocross:

-It'll teach your son more about car control, and in theory should make him a better driver. They usually hold instructional in the beginning of the year (and experienced member are always willing to lend advice/instruction throughout) It also teaches you to respect the limits of your car, and hopefully provides an outlet, for all that speed lust, that isn't on public roads.
-It's an excellent activity for you and your son to do together (hooray father-son bonding!)
-You can do it in a completely stock car without any real preparation (just make sure your oil and brake fluid are at appropriate levels).
-It's a lot of fun


(Excuse the long reply, I've got 30min of work left and this helped me kill some time haha)

Please see bold

[DriveDriftDogfight86]

I just came here to say that I'm fairly young, and I completely thrashed the first car that my dad gave me, not on purpose, just from overestimating my driving abilities for awhile. Now that I bought a nice car with my own money I got to start all over and I treat it like a baby, and getting close to 2 years owning it now, its still in the same condition as when I bought it.

I know not every kid is reckless or like me, but 9 out of 10 chances he's going to go Ricky Bobby in a new red sports car when the coast seems clear.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by DriveDriftDogfight86

I just came here to say that I'm fairly young, and I completely thrashed the first car that my dad gave me, not on purpose, just from overestimating my driving abilities for awhile. Now that I bought a nice car with my own money I got to start all over and I treat it like a baby, and getting close to 2 years owning it now, its still in the same condition as when I bought it.

I know not every kid is reckless or like me, but 9 out of 10 chances he's going to go Ricky Bobby in a new red sports car when the coast seems clear.

But he could/would do the same in an old white Corolla so...


Guys, these are just cars not something 'special' or 'exotic' just ordinary, everyday, inexpensive, two door coupe, cars that people like to pretend are race cars of some kind. There is nothing that can be done with these that can not be done (or at least attempted) in any other car. These cars just do some of it better.

[algs26]

A neutral handling RWD is not ideal for beginners because of the urge to completely lift when heading towards a guard rail, mountain side, etc. (or worse, slam on the brakes). This is with stability control disabled.

Most FWD cars have built in terminal understeer. Lifting or braking mid turn in a Corolla won't do anything (bad).

Drive like a grandma and you could drive a Viper.

I would recommend learning stick. If anything, it will be hard to text/eat/pokemon and drive.

Some of kind of car control training will increase the odds for new drivers (lane change, catching the rear end, etc). Autox is good (and fun). Except for the tires, the FRS/BRZ is pretty good out of the box. BMW has a free teen driving school at their ultimate driving experiences. Or maybe visit one of those karting places. Heck, even racing games will teach car control.

[Ashikabi]

Originally Posted by pauldz

I suppose someone could have changed the name tags, but why would they do that?

I didn't read this whole thread. The black one is rebadged because people want it to be as it is from the motherland(japan, where is known as the gt86) and for a reason I don't fully understand myself... Despise scion even though it's just a badge*shrug*. Either car is a decent call. If the only mods on the black one are exhaust and badges, then it would be awful hard for the previous owner to screw it up so it may be safer than the red one with its"unknown" damages. Good luck

[Shinigami301]

Originally Posted by Ashikabi

The black one is rebadged because people want it to be as it is from the motherland(japan, where is known as the gt86)

Wrong.

In Japan the car has no model badges at all except the "86" piston badges on the fenders, and it's a Toyota 86, not a GT86.

Toyota logos on the nose and rear and nothing else- not even the word "Toyota".