Frs vs s2000

[EAGLE5]

FR-S has rear seats. FR-S has modern crash protection. Hence, FR-S wins in the real world.

Really, I see the S2000 as occupying a no-man's-land of cardom. It's not a track rocket ship like a Corvette or many other big-engine coupes. It's not as sublime or balanced as a Boxster or Elise. It's not as cheap to run or track-toy-like as a Miata. Yes, it's a reliable sports car. That's about it. If I'm going to buy a 2-seater, there's a massive list of cars I'd buy first.

This is compared to what the FR-S faces for modern 2+2's. The Mustang and Camaro take the big-engine, fat body, poor response crowd. The Genesis Coupe gets the tasteless crowd. The G37, 135i, and 435i get the GT crowd. The 911 gets the money crowd. Then the FR-S and BRZ get everyone else.

Really, the only car that could do all the FR-S does for me is the 911. With an Innovate kit or the like on the FR-S, I can't see myself upgrading to a 911 anytime soon. If the twins get a major engine upgrade at some point, I might upgrade with it.

[AyJay]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

FR-S has rear seats. FR-S has modern crash protection. Hence, FR-S wins in the real world.

Really, I see the S2000 as occupying a no-man's-land of cardom. It's not a track rocket ship like a Corvette or many other big-engine coupes. It's not as sublime or balanced as a Boxster or Elise. It's not as cheap to run or track-toy-like as a Miata. Yes, it's a reliable sports car. That's about it. If I'm going to buy a 2-seater, there's a massive list of cars I'd buy first.

This is compared to what the FR-S faces for modern 2+2's. The Mustang and Camaro take the big-engine, fat body, poor response crowd. The Genesis Coupe gets the tasteless crowd. The G37, 135i, and 435i get the GT crowd. The 911 gets the money crowd. Then the FR-S and BRZ get everyone else.

Really, the only car that could do all the FR-S does for me is the 911. With an Innovate kit or the like on the FR-S, I can't see myself upgrading to a 911 anytime soon. If the twins get a major engine upgrade at some point, I might upgrade with it.

Speaking of the real world, the s2000 IS a track rocket that occupies the advanced driver group of many track orgs around here and, especially with a lil aftermarket help, DOES do work agaist the bigger engine coupes and supposedly better balanced cars you talk about.

From a bench racer perspective, i can see why you might think that tho.

The real litmus test for me comes from the fact every owner of both an s2k and a FR-S (seems to be a fair amount) that I've heard from would cut bait on the FR-S way before they'd consider doing so with the S2k, including myself. It wouldn't even be a tough decision right now.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

FR-S has rear seats. FR-S has modern crash protection. Hence, FR-S wins in the real world.

Really, I see the S2000 as occupying a no-man's-land of cardom. It's not a track rocket ship like a Corvette or many other big-engine coupes. It's not as sublime or balanced as a Boxster or Elise. It's not as cheap to run or track-toy-like as a Miata. Yes, it's a reliable sports car. That's about it. If I'm going to buy a 2-seater, there's a massive list of cars I'd buy first.

This is compared to what the FR-S faces for modern 2+2's. The Mustang and Camaro take the big-engine, fat body, poor response crowd. The Genesis Coupe gets the tasteless crowd. The G37, 135i, and 435i get the GT crowd. The 911 gets the money crowd. Then the FR-S and BRZ get everyone else.

Really, the only car that could do all the FR-S does for me is the 911. With an Innovate kit or the like on the FR-S, I can't see myself upgrading to a 911 anytime soon. If the twins get a major engine upgrade at some point, I might upgrade with it.

@AyJay's post says it best. Just how the FR-S/BRZ is garbage on paper, so is the s2k. If I wanted the fastest track car for ~26k or so, I'd buy a base Mustang GT.

[EAGLE5]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

@AyJay's post says it best. Just how the FR-S/BRZ is garbage on paper, so is the s2k. If I wanted the fastest track car for ~26k or so, I'd buy a base Mustang GT.

That's true. I wasn't saying the S2k was garbage on paper. I don't think it's garbage at all. Nothing I'd kick out of bed. I was saying that it didn't have the speed of other coupes, the balance of a mid-engined Boxster, nor the cheapness of the Miata. If I were getting a 2-seater as an additional car for street and track where I didn't need rear seats, within a reasonable budget, it would be maybe in the top 10, but not the top 5. Vette, Boxster/Cayman, NSX, Elise/Exige, Z4 M/ Z4 coupe, and Lotus 7/Caterham are all ahead. If I were to add 2+2 to the mix, I'd add the 135i, 911, Supra, and maybe even a newer 5.0 Mustang GT.

Originally Posted by AyJay

Speaking of the real world, the s2000 IS a track rocket that occupies the advanced driver group of many track orgs around here and, especially with a lil aftermarket help, DOES do work agaist the bigger engine coupes and supposedly better balanced cars you talk about.

From a bench racer perspective, i can see why you might think that tho.

The real litmus test for me comes from the fact every owner of both an s2k and a FR-S (seems to be a fair amount) that I've heard from would cut bait on the FR-S way before they'd consider doing so with the S2k, including myself. It wouldn't even be a tough decision right now.

Advanced driver groups are also filled with relatively stock Miatas and hopped-up Civics. You don't have to have an especially fast car in an advanced driver's group. You just have to be a good driver that can drive fast. That's why people like Mike can pass faster cars on the track.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

That's true. I wasn't saying the S2k was garbage on paper. I don't think it's garbage at all. Nothing I'd kick out of bed. I was saying that it didn't have the speed of other coupes, the balance of a mid-engined Boxster, nor the cheapness of the Miata. If I were getting a 2-seater as an additional car for street and track where I didn't need rear seats, within a reasonable budget, it would be maybe in the top 10, but not the top 5. Vette, Boxster/Cayman, NSX, Elise/Exige, Z4 M/ Z4 coupe, and Lotus 7/Caterham are all ahead. If I were to add 2+2 to the mix, I'd add the 135i, 911, Supra, and maybe even a newer 5.0 Mustang GT.



Advanced driver groups are also filled with relatively stock Miatas and hopped-up Civics. You don't have to have an especially fast car in an advanced driver's group. You just have to be a good driver that can drive fast. That's why people like Mike can pass faster cars on the track.

Almost all of those cars listed are terrible cars on track, in terms of performance, reliability, or both....

Advanced groups, in theory, are more about driver awareness than anything. I just happens to be that more aware drivers are faster drivers, because the awareness is a consciously developed skill.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by hmong337

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Besides, the S2000 was to compete with the Z33. Same price point, etc.

The FRS is priced to compete with the Honda Civic Si and that entire segment. It's not a winner...?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

The S2000 came out 3-4 years before the 350Z. When the 350Z debuted, it's base price was under $27k. That's not exactly the same price point. Of course, to compete with the S2000 the 350Z needed the Track option package which knocked it over $30k so I guess there's that.

[AyJay]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

Advanced driver groups are also filled with relatively stock Miatas and hopped-up Civics. You don't have to have an especially fast car in an advanced driver's group. You just have to be a good driver that can drive fast. That's why people like Mike can pass faster cars on the track.

In my experience around here, the advanced groups are NOT filled with hopped-up Civics and, with a few exceptions, the only Miatas are Spec Miatas that many s2000s qualified to run in these groups have no problem getting around.

Many of the NorCal S2000s consider themselves competitive with the high HP cars on your list rather than the Spec Miatas, Spec E30s, and other lower HP cars that run advanced here. I'm not saying that S2000 is always the fastest but we're in the conversation.

IMO, you are not giving credit where it's due... and I can see why you would do that from a bench racer perspective.

[Sonolin]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Almost all of those cars listed are terrible cars on track, in terms of performance, reliability, or both....

Advanced groups, in theory, are more about driver awareness than anything. I just happens to be that more aware drivers are faster drivers, because the awareness is a consciously developed skill.

Can you explain to me why Corvette, Exige or Elise are unreliable or poor performance?

Both seem to excel at the track and I haven't heard any major reliability problems with them.

Just saying. In terms of comparison between stock s2000 vs any of those vehicles I don't see how an s2000 could out perform with equal driving skill.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Sonolin

Can you explain to me why Corvette, Exige or Elise are unreliable or poor performance?

Both seem to excel at the track and I haven't heard any major reliability problems with them.

Just saying. In terms of comparison between stock s2000 vs any of those vehicles I don't see how an s2000 could out perform with equal driving skill.

The LSx series of engines will blow from oil starvation if the driver is fast.

The Lotus have the same problem as the corvette.

Dry sumping the LSx isn't feasible unless you have a track only car; the LS7's dry sump is NOT enough.


Case in point: how many Vettes did you see go down that last weekend at WSIR? (3). How many of them were running faster times than the BRZ? (0).


Both will outperform the s2k with good drivers, stock for stock. At high levels of modification, the Elise cannot keep up with a S2k, and the S2k will outperform the Vette. When was the last time a Corvette was entered into WTAC?

[Sonolin]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

The LSx series of engines will blow from oil starvation if the driver is fast.

The Lotus have the same problem as the corvette.

Dry sumping the LSx isn't feasible unless you have a track only car; the LS7's dry sump is NOT enough.


Case in point: how many Vettes did you see go down that last weekend at WSIR? (3). How many of them were running faster times than the BRZ? (0).


Both will outperform the s2k with good drivers, stock for stock. At high levels of modification, the Elise cannot keep up with a S2k, and the S2k will outperform the Vette. When was the last time a Corvette was entered into WTAC?

Interesting. I've never heard of any reliability issues with lsx engines, I've heard guys boosting 500-600whp+ on stock block being fine for many miles on lsxtech. But those guys also don't track it and its probably just the occasional 1/4 mile.

I still think a vette or elise on equal footing with s2k would outperform it. But I wouldn't know out of first hand experience..

EDIT: Wow. I had never heard of that problem with the lsx engines but it seems like it happens (http://www.miataturbo.net/race-prep-...grenade-68065/)

I wonder if the new lt1 in the c7's have fixed this issue?

[AyJay]

Originally Posted by Sonolin

... I don't see how an s2000 could out perform with equal driving skill.

"with equal driving skill" is always the bench racer creedo. (not saying Sonolin is a bench racer since I don't know him... just saying I hear those words alot from bench racers) I used to think like that too but nowadays my paradigm has shifted to where I now think of these things in terms of tangible examples.

Fact: some of the best drivers I know seem to gravitate toward the S2000 for the reason of affordability, performance, reliability, and most of all, fun. There are no shortage of track junkies that own these cars.

Fact: the S2000 is one of the most mature platforms as far as grassroots time attack development and that has led to an assload of easily accessible aftermarket support. (please don't read FI kits, as I know a great many of you just did)

The above facts lead to a lot of S2000s that are able to punch above their weight class at track events. I think the FRS/BRZ may get there as well if it's not derailed by realiability issues.

Edit: I love it when the Corvette club shows up for track days ... it usually makes for a lot of good YouTube fodder to show to my non-believing bench racer friends.

[AyJay]

In the interest of full disclosure ...
My last track day (mid sept @ Thunderhill) there was quite a few Corvettes.
One in particular stood out to me, a black C6 Z06 w/ ginormously wide R-Comp Hoosiers, Suspension, and aero. Brutally fast, one of the, if not the, fastest car out that day (non time trial event). Left me impressed by Corvettes in a way I never had been before.

That guy was clearly the exception rather than the rule... most Corvettes around here (and moreso their drivers) leave me unimpressed.

[CSG David]

Originally Posted by AyJay

In the interest of full disclosure ...
My last track day (mid sept @ Thunderhill) there was quite a few Corvettes.
One in particular stood out to me, a black C6 Z06 w/ ginormously wide R-Comp Hoosiers, Suspension, and aero. Brutally fast, one of the, if not the, fastest car out that day (non time trial event). Left me impressed by Corvettes in a way I never had been before.

That guy was clearly the exception rather than the rule... most Corvettes around here (and moreso their drivers) leave me unimpressed.

If modified correctly, the Corvette is actually pretty awesome, but it's going to require a pretty nice bank account to get you there (obviously a non-issue if you track a Corvette anyways). I dream of a built street class C7 Z06/Z07 that's still a V8 with a decently high rev limiter (not some stupid V6 TT rumor). Would be a fun car to drive around with absolutely no need for power mods...well maybe removal of cats and a tune.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by AyJay

Fact: the S2000 is one of the most mature platforms as far as grassroots time attack development and that has led to an assload of easily accessible aftermarket support. (please don't read FI kits, as I know a great many of you just did)

The above facts lead to a lot of S2000s that are able to punch above their weight class at track events. I think the FRS/BRZ may get there as well if it's not derailed by realiability issues.

Friend of mine races a C5 (w2w racing), very reliably so and in the class he runs it in he doesn't have to do anything to the engine and runs it on pump gas so it's quite affordable to race as well. The S2k can run as fast in that class just as reliably and affordably as that C5. I've already done the math.

I had originally intended the FRS to be my next race car but it simply doesn't like making power on pump gas. I need to make 270whp on Pump gas and be able to run it at red line all day. The s2k is something I can do that with, it is an incredible platform and will be my next race car.