Frs vs s2000

[thill]

You damn Californians with your near perfect year round weather... Makes owning a convertible as a daily driver a much more easy option...

I rarely see convertibles on the road here, and it is usually only from about June until September....

[Sonolin]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

haha... I'm not allowed to discuss those times, since it was purely for testing.

I can drive with or without downforce, although a balanced amount of downforce is always faster.

Well that's no fun.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by hmong337

I think we should hold out longer on what the consensus is on the DI failures.

"Holding out" is the opposite of "going to the track without a care in the world"...

Everybody talks as if everybodys car is going to catastrophically fail tomorrow due to the DI system. I personally think it's just a small percentage of people that is being blown way out of proportion. If it's happening to the majority, then we'll go from there.

It's not happening to the majority, it's happening to those who track them. It is specific to upshifting at high rpm, which is exactly what you do at the track. Normal track driving kills these engines.

Well according to the land of Canadia... They were $40k cars new. Take a few grand off for you Americans I suppose.

Can you get an FR-S for $25,000?

Either way, it's certainly in that range.

$40k isn't $35k. If you're calling the FR-S a $25k car, then the S2k was a $35k car.

I expect my FA20 to last lots of racing too, stock. As should many other motors.

Be aware that there are serious issues with tracking these engines!

Don't know where your claims of brainwashing comes from.

See earlier posts in the thread regarding $40k S2000 vs. $25k FR-S.
In the US, the S2000 was never $40k.

I suppose you need to defend your purchase...?

No, I bought my S2000 in 2007 for $15k. When the FR-S/BRZ are appealing enough to me (including proven track reliability) I'll probably buy one.

Either way, the performance of the S2000 is better out of the box. I don't dispute that. Not sure why you're crying for

Just tired of seeing the S2000 disparaged as being so expensive when in reality it stickered for only $5k more than the most comparable 86 (BRZ Limited in the U.S.) and gave reasonable value for $$$ for the extra dough.

You'd be a fool to expect any stock motor to last rigorous racing at double the horsepower.

Yeah, but you'd expect a stock 200hp engine to last under rigorous track usage. The FA20 is questionable even totally stock.

The S2000 may have more strength stock, but I can't see any motor lasting at double the horsepower doing sessions after sessions for a considerable length of time. You're going to eventually break; which calls for your motor build at some point. The FA20 seems to call for one earlier in the modding game against the S2000.

The F20C and F22C have proven to be very reliable over thousands of miles of hard track usage. The FA20 seems to be hung up on tuning issues leading to the DI injectors failing. Hopefully they retroactively fix them all soon!

[aCab]

Welp, I've officially joined the "s2000 or more reliable on track than the twins" crew as of today

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by aCab

Welp, I've officially joined the "s2000 or more reliable on track than the twins" crew as of today

I feel half guilty liking that post.

[iLuveKetchup]

Originally Posted by aCab

Welp, I've officially joined the "s2000 or more reliable on track than the twins" crew as of today

Yikes!

[ayau]

Originally Posted by aCab

Welp, I've officially joined the "s2000 or more reliable on track than the twins" crew as of today

Details? Seals melted? I'm tempted to just sell mine if that's the case.

[hmong337]

a

Originally Posted by ZDan

"Holding out" is the opposite of "going to the track without a care in the world"...

It's not happening to the majority, it's happening to those who track them. It is specific to upshifting at high rpm, which is exactly what you do at the track. Normal track driving kills these engines.

Can you get an FR-S for $25,000?

$40k isn't $35k. If you're calling the FR-S a $25k car, then the S2k was a $35k car.

Be aware that there are serious issues with tracking these engines!

See earlier posts in the thread regarding $40k S2000 vs. $25k FR-S.
In the US, the S2000 was never $40k.

No, I bought my S2000 in 2007 for $15k. When the FR-S/BRZ are appealing enough to me (including proven track reliability) I'll probably buy one.



Just tired of seeing the S2000 disparaged as being so expensive when in reality it stickered for only $5k more than the most comparable 86 (BRZ Limited in the U.S.) and gave reasonable value for $$$ for the extra dough.

Yeah, but you'd expect a stock 200hp engine to last under rigorous track usage. The FA20 is questionable even totally stock.


The F20C and F22C have proven to be very reliable over thousands of miles of hard track usage. The FA20 seems to be hung up on tuning issues leading to the DI injectors failing. Hopefully they retroactively fix them all soon!

Okay, I get it. The S2000 is a good car.

...if I was looking for something used, it would be an Evo 9. No need to explain how good those cars are (clean, modfied, and well cared for, of course)! But the new technology of Toyobaru apealed to me. Most importantly, it's fresh and is awesome to look at. The S2000 always looked boring to me. Same goes for the Evo 9.

The FRS won me over with entry level pricing and sharp agile handling.

Let me rephrase... the S2000 was around a $40k car while my FRS is $26k in Canada. You're also not accounting for inflation too. $35k back then is obviously more today! *facepalm*

With the FRS, I believe you are starting with the better chassis. By that, I mean the design, architecture, and rigidity are more superior. That, to me, is a HUGE advantage. Like I said earlier, it only has been 2 years of developement and we're already lapping Tsukuba at 58sec. Not bad for a newly developed platform!

As these cars get out there into the used market, things will only get better and improve. Give it like 5-10 years. Once the used market is flooded with these cars, I believe tons more innovative aftermarket will arrive.

Don't like the FA20 motor or affraid of it dying ( )? Throw something crazy like a 2JZ, LSx, or whatever amazing motor into the car. The chassis can take it all day. I will admit that that thought has crossed my mind a bunch. If my FA20 were to take a shit outside of waranty, I'm throwing something better in there. That won't be for a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time though. My FRS will be kept near stock for DD purposes and the occasional play day.

I am a believer that the 4ugse is an ultimately reliable motor. Isn't that what both Toyota and Subaru represent? Good reliable motors? Long lasting cars? I come from Toyotas and I believe they made an excellent entry level sportscar for the price (probably the best!).

I am hoping to get 400,000kms out of this motor. I believe it can do it. Even the old 2.0L and 2.2L Subaru motors are known to last forever.

I heard that the new OpenFlash Tablet has a cure for DI related issue if you are one of the unlucky ones that have it. I'm gonna get one just in case; plus modify the maps where I see fit.

Besides, the S2000 was to compete with the Z33. Same price point, etc.

The FRS is priced to compete with the Honda Civic Si and that entire segment. It's not a winner...?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[iLuveKetchup]

Originally Posted by hmong337

Don't like the FA20 motor or affraid of it dying ( )? Throw something crazy like a 2JZ, LSx, or whatever amazing motor into the car.

What if you have to follow class rules and a swap is not permitted? The issues are coming from track'd cars which have to adhere to some restrictions. More often than not, a swapped motor is not allowed.

[hmong337]

Originally Posted by iLuveKetchup

What if you have to follow class rules and a swap is not permitted? The issues are coming from track'd cars which have to adhere to some restrictions. More often than not, a swapped motor is not allowed.

Then you're SOL...

I don't race competitively to care.

[ayau]

Originally Posted by iLuveKetchup

What if you have to follow class rules and a swap is not permitted? The issues are coming from track'd cars which have to adhere to some restrictions. More often than not, a swapped motor is not allowed.

This looks nice.

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=519466

[iLuveKetchup]

Originally Posted by ayau

This looks nice.

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=519466

Whoa! ok.. please buy my CR.

[ayau]

Originally Posted by iLuveKetchup

Whoa! ok.. please buy my CR.

Send me PM if serious, lol.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by hmong337

But the new technology of Toyobaru apealed to me.

What is this "new technology" that the FR-S has that is so desirable? DI? No thanks!

Let me rephrase... the S2000 was around a $40k car while my FRS is $26k in Canada. You're also not accounting for inflation too. $35k back then is obviously more today! *facepalm*

Its price went up by about 1% per year. Today it would be ~$36.5k. Car prices don't go up exactly by inflation. Ferinstance, a 2009 Corvette was $48.6k, 2013 is $49.6k. Going by inflation, it should be $53k.

With the FRS, I believe you are starting with the better chassis. By that, I mean the design, architecture, and rigidity are more [sic] superior.

With the FR-S you also get inferior suspension design, inferior weight distribution, and an inferior powerplant. I don't know what the FR-S chassis stiffness is, presumably it is a bit stiffer than the s2000's ~22,000 N-m/degree.

Don't like the FA20 motor or affraid of it dying ( )?

Yes, I'm afraid of killing the engine tracking the car.

Throw something crazy like a 2JZ, LSx, or whatever amazing motor into the car.

??? Do you think I hate money? That ain't happenin' any time soon... FR-S/BRZ is not the best swap candidate due to weight distribution issues anyway. Unlike an RX-7 or an S2000, where you can swap in a heavier more powerful engine and maintain 50/50 weight distribution, with the FR-S you are going to negatively impact the already poor 54/46 front-heavy bias. Unless you cut the firewall and move the engine/trans significantly aft.

The chassis can take it all day.

So can an ancient 240Z chassis. Road loads are FAR higher than driveline loads.

I heard that the new OpenFlash Tablet has a cure for DI related issue if you are one of the unlucky ones that have it. I'm gonna get one just in case; plus modify the maps where I see fit.

I think that ALL the 2013 FR-S/BRZ have the issue with the factory tune, not just "unlucky" ones. I'm trying to keep up with tuning fixes, but not really interested in applying a tune to a brand-new car. I'll see how it develops.

Besides, the S2000 was to compete with the Z33. Same price point, etc.

There was no Z33 when the S2000 came out.

The FRS is priced to compete with the Honda Civic Si and that entire segment. It's not a winner...?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

It is definitely a winner as a street car, especially at $25k. I'm very disappointed with the issues people are having tracking them, though. And trackability is a MUST for me even for a daily-driver.