Production version ready next April

[Snaps]

Originally Posted by Calais

whos to say that subaru gets the enigine that toyota/yamaha reworks?? it will probably be a subaru engine in the subaru model worked on by sti in the normal fashion, so they will know that engine right?

but what do i care im in australia no scion here so i dont have to care about rebadging just test both when they come out and choose the one i like best(if i like them evenly im going Toyota), and if it only comes out in one brand i'll get that one.

:happy0180: heres hoping it makes it EVERYWHERE as a Toyota!

I don't think for a second the two will have different engines/heads. The whole point of this project was for Toyota and Subaru to create an AFFORDABLE sports car, having differences in body/engine/transmission/induction systems/etc. all add to the original R&D costs and doing that will RUIN the car they have planned on making at the moment.

[BoostJunkie]

Originally Posted by cyde01

i told my self over and over that it's not a big deal, the badge doesn't matter, i can just rebadge it. but why, why am i so disappointed!!!!??? ugh

X2!

[70NYD]

Originally Posted by Snaps

I don't think for a second the two will have different engines/heads. The whole point of this project was for Toyota and Subaru to create an AFFORDABLE sports car, having differences in body/engine/transmission/induction systems/etc. all add to the original R&D costs and doing that will RUIN the car they have planned on making at the moment.

exactly.. there are a lot of ppl here that dont understand what badge engineering is..

Originally Posted by chulooz

Im reading a lot of assumptions here. One the boxer engine is the only thing Subaru people know, the motors Scion and Subaru get may not be the same, as mentioned above, STI would probably have a role in the development and the community does know all about that. The chassis is going to be based off an active Subaru chassis so there will be plenty of knowledge there. And what makes you think that Subaru will have a RWD experience, an AWD variant is not out of the question.

All in all, I think the Subaru community will play a leading role in the aftermarket sector of this car. Way more than the practically non-existent Scion group. They will also have more of a head start on the old school Toyota guys that want in on this car.

umm r u serious? do you see where the front wheels are on this thing compared to the engine?? the AWD thing has been discussed and there is not PRACTICAL way of making this car a AWD with the current setup.. and besides if this car WAS a AWD it would have been tested as such from day one. when you look at the spy pics of the test mule (not the latest latest but a month back) you will notice that they dont have centre caps on the wheels, and from there u will c that the front wheels DONT have axel nuts.. therefore are not driven
think before you post and stop assuming, makes you sound stupid

[ichitaka05]

iirc, subaru did say they're test driving both rwd & awd. that's why there's ppl think this car gonna have awd. i debated cuz, ppl said it's impossible to have awd in this car... almost to waste time til see the final production.

[Snaps]

^ Once again Ichi... If you're referring to me (and others with the same opinion as me), I NEVER said it was impossible for it to be AWD. I just said it would be a stupid idea on Subaru's part... The changes that would need to be made to convert this current-RWD car to AWD would not be worth the money as it would involve changes that would modify subframes, even chassis, axles, hubs, etc.

And then after all of that, they would end up with a car that is FAR too much like the current Impreza WRX, something that would not be a wise marketing decision.

[ichitaka05]

lol that debate can be talk bout it on different thread after i get back from jp. i just corrected 70NYD's statement bout they only testing rwd setup. i just remember reading bout how they're testing both setup.

[Calais]

Originally Posted by Snaps

I don't think for a second the two will have different engines/heads. The whole point of this project was for Toyota and Subaru to create an AFFORDABLE sports car, having differences in body/engine/transmission/induction systems/etc. all add to the original R&D costs and doing that will RUIN the car they have planned on making at the moment.

isnt subaru making the engine 1ST? isnt subaru THEN giving the engine to toyota??? isnt toyota THEN taking the engine over to yamaha to redo the heads??? so the engine for the subaru version is ready as soon as they are ready to give it to toyota right?? all it would need then is subaru to give it to sti for performance right???

apart from the sti tune i dont see ANY EXTRA money being spent on the engine. and since sti have been doing subarus engines for years now the cost will be minimal!

And anyway even if the engine in the subaru was the one worked by yamaha sti would probably get their hands on the engine sooner or later, so i dont see any extra costs

[nate89]

^ Why wouldn't Subaru then use the Toyota/Yamaha "tuned" engine in their car? From there they can give it an sti tune. It doesn't make sense for subaru and toyota to tune an engine two different ways.

[Snaps]

Here we go again

From the FT86 concept, we can see there is not enough room in front of the front axle for the engine, radiator, AC condensor, and the front bumper - to use Subaru's AWD system (Where the front axle shafts come out from the front of the transmission), the axle will need to be bought back, which will incur changes to the chassis, subframes, steering rack, etc.

I thought it was to be a Subaru-inspired Boxer? Subaru may well be producing the block of the engine, but if anything it will be from Toyota directives IMO. Which will likely mean it will not be made to be AWD and will, in fact be made to go above or behind the front axle, this leaves only a Celica-GT4 style AWD system or RWD only system, however, the GT4 system will require the engine to be located higher in the chassis, which may change the hood, may change the interior, and will certainly raise the centre of gravity of the car -something Toyota seems adamant to keep low.

This is, of course, only if the car is going to use something very similar to the FT86 chassis/body.

Edit: nate, I completely agree... I'll say it again - this is a joint venture between Subie and Toyota, changing parts or tuning on either will cost more in R&D, and that cost will be passed onto the consumer. Which will likely again ruin the whole idea of an affordable sports coupe.

[ichitaka05]

hey i didn't start is one. also one correction. there IS space in front, but cost & xmember setup, can't do it... but never know subaru CAN do it, just not cost friendly.

[Calais]

Originally Posted by nate89

^ Why wouldn't Subaru then use the Toyota/Yamaha "tuned" engine in their car? From there they can give it an sti tune. It doesn't make sense for subaru and toyota to tune an engine two different ways.

yes it does makes sense, why would toyota AND subaru have the exact same car(all be it exept from the body)? they might as well sell it under one brand and split the earnings 50-50 if its the same engine, tranny, suspension and electricals under the skin?

the way i see it there will be 2 versions the toyota or the subaru

toyota will have the n/a yamaha worked motor and the only way a turbo will be seen is if the g-sports model is sold and subaru will have THEIR engine worked on by sti.

there is no extra costs with two different engines, this is how it'd be the engines are made at subaru then the ones that are going to be put into toyotas will be shipped to yamaha missing the peices that yamaha will put into it when it gets to yamaha the engines get whatever changes put onto them and then on to toyota and into the cars, whilst the engines for the subarus will stay at subaru and be put directly into the subarus with select few in the sti versions. I personally dont see the extra cost, if anything it will be cheaper for subaru to do it this way rather than send all the engines to yamaha and wait for them to return to put them into the cars, and the toyota variants will go through this regardless if there is two different engines or not.

the cars have to FEEL different when being driven thats the whole point. subaru MUST personalise the DRIVING experience to fit in with their other cars, and so too does toyota. i dont want to be driving down the road and see a subaru version of my car, regardless of the different body panels, if subarus car can do the same thing my toyota can i wont buy either car for the simple fact, the car is no longer one of a kind its got this other side that is exactly like it in the feel of the engine the way they both handle the exact same way except it has a different dress on it. its the reason why twins annoy me. why would i want something that someone else can have a duplicate of at the same time, and i know its going to be mass produced but its not the same thing, i want a toyota and not a subaru dressed as a toyota, in the end isnt that why we dont want it as a scion? because its not a scion its meant to be the successor of the AE-86 AND NOT the tc or the svx or the wrx. it has to feel like the 86 as a toyota which has that effortless feel of a free revving engine delivering performance throughout the rev range and nothing else, as a subaru it has to feel close to their cars which arent free revving which all sports versions are assisted by boost which inevitably makes it a subaru and gives it that UNIGUE FEEL.

[Snaps]

Originally Posted by Calais

yes it does makes sense, why would toyota AND subaru have the exact same car(all be it exept from the body)? they might as well sell it under one brand and split the earnings 50-50 if its the same engine, tranny, suspension and electricals under the skin?

Well then answer to me why Ford and Mazda used the same car for the late 80's Telstar and 626? Add to that the Toyota Cavalier and Chevrolet Cavalier? I'm sure there are other examples too, but I can't think of them at the moment. Can anyone else help out?
Edit: I agree that they should have a different feel to them each, but I'm not sure whether it will - or won't - turn out that way, and I'm leaning towards no....

Ichi, I think we need to agree to disagree.... I don't think there is enough room to fit everything in front of that very small overhang, you think otherwise? Agreed? (I agree that Subaru could do it, but I think it would take quite major modifications, and that's not part of my argument :P )

[70NYD]

Originally Posted by Snaps

Well then answer to me why Ford and Mazda used the same car for the late 80's Telstar and 626? Add to that the Toyota Cavalier and Chevrolet Cavalier? I'm sure there are other examples too, but I can't think of them at the moment. Can anyone else help out?
Edit: I agree that they should have a different feel to them each, but I'm not sure whether it will - or won't - turn out that way, and I'm leaning towards no....

Ichi, I think we need to agree to disagree.... I don't think there is enough room to fit everything in front of that very small overhang, you think otherwise? Agreed? (I agree that Subaru could do it, but I think it would take quite major modifications, and that's not part of my argument :P )

and 90s pretty much across the line (laser/323, probe/mx6, telstar/tx5/626) not just same engine either, more or less just different lights and bumpers. and this example is cus i have a 323 and have looked in to it a bit, there are many other examples of badge engineering but im not going in to that any more.. everyting in these 2 cars should be the same, the one version might come with more or less options. they will have different lights/bumpers/hood and possible fenders/interior.. but thats just skin.. underneath all the same.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Calais

yes it does makes sense, why would toyota AND subaru have the exact same car(all be it exept from the body)? they might as well sell it under one brand and split the earnings 50-50 if its the same engine, tranny, suspension and electricals under the skin?

the way i see it there will be 2 versions the toyota or the subaru

toyota will have the n/a yamaha worked motor and the only way a turbo will be seen is if the g-sports model is sold and subaru will have THEIR engine worked on by sti.

Are you head of the product planning committee/FT-86 engineering team? Tada already said a turbo was in the cards if the market demanded it. I doubt also that Toyota would "lose face" settling for what would effectively be a #2 car in the eyes of joe public.

Originally Posted by Snaps

Here we go again

From the FT86 concept, we can see there is not enough room in front of the front axle for the engine, radiator, AC condensor, and the front bumper - to use Subaru's AWD system (Where the front axle shafts come out from the front of the transmission), the axle will need to be bought back, which will incur changes to the chassis, subframes, steering rack, etc.

I thought it was to be a Subaru-inspired Boxer? Subaru may well be producing the block of the engine, but if anything it will be from Toyota directives IMO. Which will likely mean it will not be made to be AWD and will, in fact be made to go above or behind the front axle, this leaves only a Celica-GT4 style AWD system or RWD only system, however, the GT4 system will require the engine to be located higher in the chassis, which may change the hood, may change the interior, and will certainly raise the centre of gravity of the car -something Toyota seems adamant to keep low.

GT4 type awd couldn't be used. It'd be Porsche style, or Legacy GT500 style. That is the only way you can put awd in THAT chassis without totally effing it up by making the nose longer and uglier and carrying the weight dist. forward. Or maybe re-engineering the whole car, but then you'd be looking at a $35k+ car.