Supercharger or Turbo ?

[Wyllliam]

There is a rumour that toyota is only going to use the NA version (160 hp)of this engine an that subaru is going to use the turbo.

[Lauren]

Originally Posted by rhythmnsmoke

My vote is Turbo. I'm partial to it, since I have a turbo on my current car. Lag? What's lag....LOL.

Lag eliminators:

From a Launch - 2step launch control

From a Roll - Brake Boost it

From gear to gear - Flat foot shifting (power shifting)

All 3 eliminate lag on turbocharged applications.

But you cannot negate turbo lag in respect of a lack of instant responsiveness when adjusting the throttle mid corner. That's why I always prefer NA's as they have far more on the limit adjustability and you are able to be far more precise with throttle inputs.

[Wyllliam]

Originally Posted by rhythmnsmoke

200hp N/A not 160.

that's the value they told me. The guy just came back from japan and was pretty sure.

[Lauren]

Originally Posted by rhythmnsmoke

Every known report has been 200hp NA. Don't matter much after boosting it anyway though.

If that's the case I'll be quite happy because it's exactly what I'm looking for in terms of power and aspiration.

[Lauren]

Originally Posted by rhythmnsmoke

Sorry, left one off the list.

- Anti-lag (for keeping the turbo spooled while in the corner).

And let's not negate the fundamental principal of "proper turbo selection" to begin with.

Though anti-lag in a car like this is beyond unlikely. Sure a well specc'd turbo will help but you'll never lose that mid-corner lag. Not to say it wouldn't be fun but you still won't have the precision you get with an NA car in respect of throttle adjustability.

[NESW20]

like i said previously, throttle response and boost response are not the same thing. you'd be surprised at how responsive my engine is. also, it's generally a bad idea to be slamming the throttle open to spool a turbo mid-corner...

when you add throttle as you unwind the wheel coming out of a corner, you really won't get lag as you are gradually opening the throttle, and the turbo can surely keep up with your foot in that case.

-Mike

[Lauren]

Originally Posted by NESW20

like i said previously, throttle response and boost response are not the same thing. you'd be surprised at how responsive my engine is. also, it's generally a bad idea to be slamming the throttle open to spool a turbo mid-corner...

when you add throttle as you unwind the wheel coming out of a corner, you really won't get lag as you are gradually opening the throttle, and the turbo can surely keep up with your foot in that case.

-Mike

I think you are missing the point. I'm talking about minute throttle adjustments mid corner in order to balance the car. This is where you notice turbo lag IME. So it's not about slamming a throttle open mid-corner it's about making tiny adjustments. This is where a turbo loses out to a high revving NA in terms of adjustability of the atttitude of the car through throttle response. I'm talking about when the tyres are in their optimum slip angle as you see the apex.

On the limit some throttle adjustment is generally necessary.

[NESW20]

i know what you're trying to say, but an n/a throttle doesn't open any differently than a turbo throttle. throttle response can be just as sharp. and when making minute throttle adjustments, the turbo is not going to be changing boost levels by very much at all, so there isn't going to be any lag.

-Mike

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Wyllliam

that's the value they told me. The guy just came back from japan and was pretty sure.

If Toyota put a 160hp engine in this car, it better weigh sub 2000lbs.

[Lauren]

Originally Posted by rhythmnsmoke

Your precision throttle talk won't translate to faster lap times though man. There is only so much power you can make being NA. If this was a Honda then you might have a case, but its not some old Honda hatch with next to nothing in weight. I think you are weighing to heavily on this mid-corner throttle contol.

Fyi...anti-lag is not something that's a feature in a car. Its a feature in the engine management you choose to control your car. So any car can be equipped with anti-lag.

I wasn't planning on going racing so laptimes are irrelevant. Oh and I'm not a man thanks. Given you aren't allowed to time on trackdays laptimes are still irrelevant.
I realise the limitations of an NA but that does not mean a turbo is better. For the more power it makes it loses in throttle response. As I said 200bhp is plenty enough for what I want.

I think people underestimate how important having razor sharp throttle response is. I always notice the lag of a turbo when I have driven turbo cars on track. I even notice it slightly in supercharged cars of which I've had two which were extensively tracked in the UK & Europe.

The engine is in the car ergo it's a feature of the car. Sure you can fit anti-lag and go faster stripes but we aren't talking about modified cars are we?

[Lauren]

Originally Posted by NESW20

i know what you're trying to say, but an n/a throttle doesn't open any differently than a turbo throttle. throttle response can be just as sharp. and when making minute throttle adjustments, the turbo is not going to be changing boost levels by very much at all, so there isn't going to be any lag.

-Mike

Sure the throttle works the same, but think about how a turbo works. Off the exhaust gases, so they have to travel through the engine first then you've got to compress the air which goes through the throttle.

There is lag, I've felt it in every turbo car I've driven on track. It's not a mega issue and yes of course you get used to it and drive around it. It does tend to mean that you tend to pump the throttle slightly to compensate. Again not a mega problem in itself, but it does diminish how delicate you can be with the throttle when adjusting the attitude of the car mid-corner.

Sure if the car drives good and it's a turbo I'd definitely give it a go, no probs with that. Turbo technology has moved on a long way since the 80s and even the 90s so the lag issue isn't what it used to be.

[Lauren]

Originally Posted by rhythmnsmoke

Sorry for the gender screw up...lol. Didn't pay much attention to the screen name.

You are back pedaling a little though, as you were talking about mid-corner throttle response. My immediate thought was track racing. Yet you don't race or inted to race on the track. You can't compare this type of stuff on the streets as you don't drive with the same prowess on the street as you would the track. You simply are not going to drive to the absolute limit on your local street. And if you were then you SHOULD be on the track putting that skill to the test. By your comments though it does not sound like you have much experience with owning/driving a properly sized/equipped turbo cars. You can drive turbo cars with applications tailored toward drag racing, and then there are setups engineered toward road racing. Which is going to have optimized throttle response over the drag setup. All turbo setups are not the same. They are equipped so so...that they would be optimized for that particular task. For Road Racing a Supra with a big single T67 on it would not be ideal. For drag and highway pulls its better suited for.

And what do you mean not allowed to time laps? What track or race events don't allow you to time your own car? What, they ban you from running a datalogger?

And quite the contratry, the thread is titled Supercharger or turbocharger. Being that this car is NA from the factory, it would be "Modified" in order to run either would it not? Therfore YES we are talking about modified cars.

Ahh for some reason I thought there was something about a turbo option in engine configs. Sorry about that. If there isn't then cool as I would prefer NA anyway. I wouldn't modify the car as I don't see the point really. I've modified a fair few cars but don't bother with it anymore. If it doesn't do what I want I buy a car that does.

In the UK you are not allowed to time laps on a trackday, it is by definition non-competitive. I know this because I worked for a trackday company for over 3 years. So datalogging is not allowed.

I have no interest in drag racing, always though that was for straightline junkies who can't drive. I understand what you are saying about different spec turbos and the comparison to drag racing. I've driven a variety of turbo cars on track. I've not owned one because I've not seen the appeal really.

I'd take the car on trackdays, that's where I'd want spot on throttle response. On the road in the wet it's great to have a sharp throttle to balance the car as there is the odd road over here where you can drive pretty hard.

I guess at the end of the day I'm something of a purist when it comes to how cars handle and how the engine/drivetrain interacts with that.

[NESW20]

Lauren - I think we have different experiences which accounts for our different opinions. I have done most of my tracking and autocross in turbo cars, and the n/a cars that I have run haven't had the kind of throttle response your vehicles have. If you're ever in the area, you should come track my MR2 with me, as it has the best throttle response of anything boosted I have ever driven (better than most n/a cars, actually). Please don't misunderstand, I fully intend on purchasing the n/a version of the car. I have no desire to live with a turbo car on a day-to-day basis. And I couldn't agree more, 200hp n/a will be perfect for my purposes!

-Mike

[Lauren]

Originally Posted by rhythmnsmoke

So, then it's an all purpose intention in keeping your car bone stock. Understandable, but it seems as if your position was that an NA car was going to be every bit as fast as a properly sized boosted car of the same make and model. 99% of the time that is not the case. That 1% of the time when it is....probably for the most part only exist in the Honda world.

That's pretty counter productive about the UK tracks not allowing lap times. Though it may be a non-competitive track day....the competition is still "yourself". Running and beating your own lap times improves you as a driver. How would you improve or know you are consistent without the use of data? No way of knowing.

The only cars I would be satisfied with leaving stock would be cars that cost in excess of $80k. And I can't afford anything over $50k...lol, so needless to say, for me, stock won't last long. I have to change Something. Basically as a stamp of "this is my personal expression".

I didn't think I was in a debate as to what would be faster, I was talking more about throttle response, but I wasn't insinuating one was faster than the other assuch. For me it comes more down to personal preference and having a more delicate balance to the control of the car which is the case with an NA. I like that.

Trackdays are about having fun. I've done hundreds (I used to work for a trackday company). It's not a competition and you aren't competing against yourself. You know when you are nailing a corner or a lap, though sometimes I just go sideways for the hell of it. I just see it as having a bit of fun with friends.

I've raced professionally too so I know about laptimes and the like.

I guess I've little interest in personal expression as I have no interest in what others think of me driving down the road. Though obviously it's nice to be behind the wheel of a nice car. I ran two extensively modified mk1 mr2 superchargers for years. Sure it was fun having way more go than most would expect, but i've been there and done that now.