Top Gear Coupe of the Year Comparo: GT86 vs BRZ

[SanDiegoFRS]

STI wing is bad-ass. It makes it a STI and not a WRX imo. (addditional HP and parts aside)

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by pkny

According to the offical Toyota press releases, the GT86 in Europe has the same front spring rate as the FR-S.

From the offical Toyota EU press kit:
"The GT86’s 23 N/mm front spring rates allow for slight body roll on initial turn-in, creating the perfect relationship between steering feel and vehicle behaviour exhibited by a classic front-engined, rear-drive platform"

From the offical Toytoa UK's press pack:

"The 23N/mm front spring rates allow for slight body roll on initial turn-in, creating the kind of perfect relationship between steering feel and vehicle behaviour shown by classic front-engine/rear-drive platforms."

Does anyone has a source showing the OEM Toyota spring rate is F3.0k and R3.3K? I could not find anything except the Wingsofwar's thread or the thread that refer to his thread.

Huh?? Your quotes say NOTHING about the FRS spring rates relative to the Euro or UK GT86, they just prove the Euro and UK versions of the GT86 are identical. I was never claiming otherwise.

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by Enemies

Interesting. Does that mean because of the springs, that the BRZ handles more like the GT86 than the FR-S does?

Given the F/R spring rate differences from that table (shown below):

OEM Toyota 86 3.0k / 3.3k
OEM Scion FR-S M/T 2.3k / 3.8k
OEM Subaru BRZ M/T 2.7k / 3.5k

And assuming no other significant differences in suspension setup (shock rates, sway bars), then

Level of oversteer: FR-S > BRZ > 86.

BRZ is a little closer in setup to the 86 than to the FR-S (.4 spring rate difference F and R vs FR-S; .3 difference F and R vs 86) so should handle a bit more like the 86.

That's a big difference in rates between the FR-S and the GT86 - going from a .3 difference front to rear to a 1.2 difference, a value four times higher - so the takeaway is that UK and Euro reviews of the 86's handling have very little relevance for the NA market.

What is not made explicit is whether the Euro and UK versions of the 86 have different spring rates from the JDM 86, although WoW's table lacks separate entries for these versions which suggests they don't. And we are still missing the shock rate piece; differences across the three models in that parameter could shift the understeer/oversteer balance somewhat.

[GNS]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoFRS

STI wing is bad-ass. It makes it a STI and not a WRX imo. (addditional HP and parts aside)

STI wing is factory rice. Tasteless and extroverted.

[pkny]

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

Given the F/R spring rate differences from that table (shown below):

OEM Toyota 86 3.0k / 3.3k
OEM Scion FR-S M/T 2.3k / 3.8k
OEM Subaru BRZ M/T 2.7k / 3.5k

And assuming no other significant differences in suspension setup (shock rates, sway bars), then

Level of oversteer: FR-S > BRZ > 86.

BRZ is a little closer in setup to the 86 than to the FR-S (.4 spring rate difference F and R vs FR-S; .3 difference F and R vs 86) so should handle a bit more like the 86.

That's a big difference in rates between the FR-S and the GT86 - going from a .3 difference front to rear to a 1.2 difference, a value four times higher - so the takeaway is that UK and Euro reviews of the 86's handling have very little relevance for the NA market.

What is not made explicit is whether the Euro and UK versions of the 86 have different spring rates from the JDM 86, although WoW's table lacks separate entries for these versions which suggests they don't. And we are still missing the shock rate piece; differences across the three models in that parameter could shift the understeer/oversteer balance somewhat.

The front spring rate are the same across all of the JDM 86, EU GT86, UK GT 86, and FR-S.
JDM 86 -- See the Japanese Toyota 86 Product Notes (On the upper right look for the words "フロントスプリング (front spring)" and "23 N/mm"

Originally Posted by DarrenDriven

EU and UK GT86 -- See my previous post.
FR-S -- See the Eibach Pro kit pdf.

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by pkny

FR-S -- See the Eibach Pro kit pdf.

Should have added this reference at the start and saved a lot of confusion! So either WoW or Eibach is wrong, it's still inconclusive without official FR-S specs available. Eibach numbers are probably right but it would be good to nail it down. Wonder what WoW's source was?

Looks like that Eibach Pro kit would be a literal PITA in a daily driver!

[pkny]

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

Should have added this reference at the start and saved a lot of confusion! So either WoW or Eibach is wrong, it's still inconclusive without official FR-S specs available. Eibach numbers are probably right but it would be good to nail it down. Wonder what WoW's source was?

Looks like that Eibach Pro kit would be a literal PITA in a daily driver!

WoW (or the OP, DarrenDriven) got the FR-S and BRZ spring rate values from Eibach. See the post#72 in that thread.

Do you know the values are in different units? 23 N/mm = 2.3 kg/mm w/ rounding.

[ryn004]

Pics of the show to be aired next sunday: http://www.carsaddiction.com/article...nce-experience

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by pkny

WoW (or the OP, DarrenDriven) got the FR-S and BRZ spring rate values from Eibach. ...Do you know the values are in different units? 23 N/mm = 2.3 kg/mm w/ rounding.

I was only looking at the relative spring rate ratios, which removes the issue of the different units used (assuming both units are linear). If the Eibach FR-S and BRZ rate data are correct then the GT86 rate data in the WoW/DarrenDriven table is wildly off, given that the GT86 value for the front spring rate shown in the Toyota PR materials you quoted matches the Eibach FR-S front value and is (presumably) accurate (but note that no value is given in the Toyota PR kit for the GT86 rear rate) .

TL;DR: That spring rate FAQ table really needs to be fixed!

[Enemies]

I wonder whose job it is to go through the audience and pick out hot girls and put them at the front. :P

[pkny]

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

If the Eibach FR-S and BRZ rate data are correct then the GT86 rate data in the WoW/DarrenDriven table is wildly off, given that the GT86 value for the front spring rate shown in the Toyota PR materials you quoted matches the Eibach FR-S front value and is (presumably) accurate (but note that no value is given in the Toyota PR kit for the GT86 rear rate) .

TL;DR: That spring rate FAQ table really needs to be fixed!

Talked to WoW about 2 weeks ago. He said the values of the 86 spring rate were from a brochure, but the values were never confirmed. He said he would update the table.

Given the front spring rate of FR-S and 86 are the same and the 86's more tail-happy characteristic from all the 86 vs BRZ reviews, it is very likely the rear spring rate of 86 is very close to FR-S if they are not the same.

[was385]

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

The ricey wing on the Limited doesn't do it for me, so I'll vote for the Premium... wish they had a wing delete option.

I understand if you don't like the spoiler on the limited, that's a matter of preference, but ricey? That wing is the furthest thing from ricey I can imagine. It's incredibly understated and subtle.

[WingsofWar]

I am going to have to make some calls to get some facts straight... the table its maybe 95% accurate to most of its standings so its not like you can't trust it.

Sorry for any confusions to anyone looking at the tables and trying to interpret the other mixed information.

I should have some OFFICIAL word about the factory spring rates made available for our cars internationally soon.

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by was385

I understand if you don't like the spoiler on the limited, that's a matter of preference, but ricey? That wing is the furthest thing from ricey I can imagine. It's incredibly understated and subtle.

Certainly there are ricier ones out there, that's for sure, but I find the raised "flutes" or whatever you want to call them along the top surface and above the mounting points unneeded detailing that adds "riciness". Also the shape of the ends appears overdone.

One caveat: I have yet to see one IRL, BRZs with spoilers are rare around here - I may have to go to a meet just to see one as dealers don't have them.

I'd prefer this - even though it's a bit more prominent, it is more "plain-speaking" and its curves better fit the character of the car's body: